Looking for a used guitar - some general questions

woodamand

great advice, I am lucky since when I find one I will be able to buy it. I will have to make sure of the return thing I guess if I buy off the internet, cause I can tell you these guitars never show up for sale locally - or a least, not since I have been looking. cheers!

Buco

Man I think waiting for your post-visit post was one of the most anticipated ever for me.
Bummer that you returned empty handed but you did the right thing.
The search is sometimes half the fun.
I never bought a guitar that didn't tell me to take it home, it's the only way it should happen and there's your guitar waiting for you out there.

Stringswinger

Woodamand,

I think 2 things are at play here.

A) You probably do not yet have the technique to get the right sound out of a Selmer style guitar. It takes a strong right hand, something that most guitar players, particularly jazz players do not have, Michael's book Gypsy Picking will show you the path. This genre has been very popular with bluegrass players as they generally have the strong right hand necessary to play the music, and the Selmer guitars well.

You have a Guild archtop that probably sounds wonderful. At the risk of pissing off some of our resident Django Nazis, let me say this; compared to a good archtop, most Selmer style guitars sound terrible. Bob Benedetto was once asked what he thought of Gypsy jazz and he said that to him Gypsy jazz sounds like a bunch of virtuoso guitar players playing really bad guitars. In the 1930's and 1940's, guitar makers were competing to become the maker of choice for jazz players, Gibson and Epiphone's archtop won the competition. Martin's Dreadnaught lost out, but found favor in the Country and folk genres. Selmer's Modele jazz never did well and if not for the cult of Django, would have been relegated to the dustbin of musical history long ago.

That said, some of these guitars do have a certain charm if played right. Some of the higher end Selmer copies (Dupont and Favino in particular) sound really good in the right hands.

I suggest that you develop your technique and see if the genre and the Selmer guitar can find a place in your musical adventure. If they do not, there are many other musical roads to follow.

Best of luck in your journey,

Cheers,

Marc

www.hotclubpacific.com

Jazzaferri

I find with a really good GJ guitar there is indicidual note clarity when playing rhythm that is not present in any archtop or flattop I have played. Even a Benedetto. That said, its the player not the guitar that makes it work.

When I first got my short scale D hole maple DuPont MDC 20 I thought it too bright sounding but I persevered and after changing my technique a bit, different pick tip and strings now love the sound I get from it. My Dunn is louder and I love its tone for lead playing but the DuPont is my go to for everything else. Its almost like playing a really good piano. Great note separation and clarity.

MichaelHorowitz

@woodamand It was nice to meet you and glad that you were at least able to get a general sense of what Gypsy guitars are like. I'm sure you'll eventually find one that you really love. If you'd like to come back and try some more let me know. I always have new stuff coming in so there's always something cool and unusual to check out.

woodamand

Hi Stringswinger
Interesting comments, I am sure you will now be uh, less popular on this forum. My right hand, after all these years of playing different styles, is pretty strong, so I am not worried about that, but good to know.
Actually I am for the moment looking for a teacher, since I have a couple of great archtops (don't scoff at the Harmony until you have played a good one!) since I do want to make sure i am serious enough about the style before I make the leap. I think live instruction will help me a lot, even though I have obtain some good teaching materials, including Gypsy Picking book.
Let me say once again going thru all the mental gymnastics with all the help on this forum has been invaluable.

Scoredog

To add on what Marc says, you may buy a fine guitar and not realize it till 2 yrs later, or it may be a dog and it might take you longer to find out because your technique is not right. Until then you may need to rely on others to tell you. Also what is right for one person may not be right for you and vice versa once you have your technique good enough...tricky business when you are starting this style. I'm a bit over 2 yrs in and still making mistakes but certainly not as many.

BluesBop Harry

Marc is right, I think... You need to use the traditional picking technique or most Selmer type guitars will sound lifeless and just awful.
They really won't give up that beautiful tone so easily. There's definitely a sort of "trick" for getting the tone out and without it you'll find yourself scratching your head and wondering what the fuzz is all about.

One year in Samois I had the privilege of playing Bireli's actual Hahl, the red one he used on Move and the Live In Paris DVD.
And let me tell you, when I tried it, that guitar didn't sound like anything special, just like any other Selmac with maybe only the slightest hint of an archtop sound to it.
Of course it wasn't the guitar's fault...
In the hands of Bireli it produced some of the most wonderful sounds that ever came out of an acoustic guitar.
It was my lack of technique and finesse that made that Hahl refuse to sing so sweetly.


So if you like what you hear on the records of the greats in this style, then that means you like the way these guitars can sound, if played right.

I'd say, get an inexpensive Cigano and work on your Gypsy Picking. If in the end you find it's not for you it won't be so bad, and you can probably get most of your money back or keep it and have a different guitar in your arsenal.
But if you get to make that Cigano sound good you'll begin to hear why some of us are crazy about these instruments.

I personally love everything about Selmer style guitars. The way they look, the playability, tone, volume... I'm absolutely in love with Django's sound and now find most other steel string acoustics or unamplified archtops weak in comparison.
Bob Benedetto must be crazy...

Stringswinger

Enrique, before he retired, Bob Benedetto was getting fifty grand for guitars that he built himself. I wish I was that crazy.....

Buco

Hmmm...
Who am I to argue Bob Benedetto's ears but I think I also read in Django's biography that upon his return to France from his States visit he was so happy to get a hold of his Selmer again and hear the sound coming out of it like a grand piano and not have to play those American archtops that to him sounded like tin cans.

There's no mystery in these guitars or any other guitars, imo, any well built guitar sounds good.
To get genre authentic tone out of it is another subject but to say these guitars need to have their secret unlocked, so to speak...well I'd just disagree.
A friend of mine plays Irish music and is using Sel-Macs only, has a D hole at the time but in the past had both ovals and D holes. He just loves the timbre of these instruments and volume as well. He has a wonderful 40s Martin that never gets touched because to him it's all bass and treble, no mids like Sel-Macs.
He has zero GJ technique and sounds great every time I hear him and his band.

I was never practical about guitars. I was always going for the very best instrument I can afford and if I can't afford what I really want I'll just wait until I can. In my gut I knew I want to play GJ for some foreseeable time so I waited until I could afford a luthier quality hand made instrument and got one and been happy since. It was "only" $2,000 but I don't plan to sell it any time soon.