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  • wimwim ChicagoModerator Barault #503 replica
    edited October 2022 Posts: 1,459

    No cutaway on those Selmers?? And a 9th fret dot?

  • billyshakesbillyshakes NoVA✭✭✭ Park Avance - Dupont Nomade - Dupont DM-50E
    Posts: 1,337

    That black Patenotte looks like the one you posted in April. I wonder if it didn't meet its reserve? Or if it sold and is back on the auction block?

  • ChrisMartinChrisMartin Shellharbour NSW Australia✭✭ Di Mauro x2, Petrarca, Genovesi, Burns, Kremona Zornitsa & Paul Beuscher resonator.
    Posts: 959

    I have seen those before, I don't think black ones are that rare. Other luthiers usually did not bother with alternate finishes, a few Busatos maybe, but Patenotte did knock a few out.

  • Posts: 4,811

    Apparently those Selmers with no cutout are Hawaiian models. One is 7 string, the other one is odd looking one with narrow neck. Interesting article here on Hawaiian guitar origins and its possible influence on other genres that used a similar technique


    WillieBillDaCostaWilliamswim
    Every note wants to go somewhere-Kurt Rosenwinkel
  • billyshakesbillyshakes NoVA✭✭✭ Park Avance - Dupont Nomade - Dupont DM-50E
    Posts: 1,337

    They might not be that rare and you would know better than me as it isn't something I follow a lot. However, the pictures from April auction (posted towards the top of p3 of this thread) and from this auction are exactly the same. Note the broken A string, the loop of string behind the headstock from perhaps the low E string and also the wear to the top near the lower bout (right side as you look at it) plus the lot sticker in the exact same position on the headstock. It is just the same photo reused from the last auction. Maybe that screams "Make an Offer" to someone who might be interested, as it must not have sold last spring?

  • ChrisMartinChrisMartin Shellharbour NSW Australia✭✭ Di Mauro x2, Petrarca, Genovesi, Burns, Kremona Zornitsa & Paul Beuscher resonator.
    Posts: 959

    Billyshakes noted: "...........However, the pictures from April auction (posted towards the top of p3 of this thread) and from this auction are exactly the same. Note the broken A string, the loop of string behind the headstock from perhaps the low E string and also the wear to the top near the lower bout (right side as you look at it) plus the lot sticker in the exact same position on the headstock. It is just the same photo reused from the last auction..........."

    Yep, sure is the same one.

    So, are they as you say, just trying again with something that didn't sell? Seems unlikely, as they usually list with estimates so low that presumably there is no reserve, which some auction houses do to ensure everything sells.

    Or, if I was the suspicious type I could suggest they are playing the shill game here. In a previous life I used to dabble in the antique trade in England before ebay was invented and before the glut of 'everyone-is-an-expert' TV shows, when it was fun to live by ones wits. There was one local estate clearance auction every Saturday which had everything from expensive quality to cheap junk, but the auctioneer knew how much he wanted for something and often took imaginary bids off the back wall to push the price up; there was one time I remember bidding on something to what I thought a sensible maximum and being outbid by someone 'behind' me only to find the exact same item in the auction the next week and again after I was 'outbid' the week after.

    So lets see if it sells this time, or turns up again next year.

    Maybe that is why I thought black ones are not rare; because the same one keeps appearing online?

    billyshakes
  • wimwim ChicagoModerator Barault #503 replica
    Posts: 1,459

    @Buco wow you're right, I didn't even notice the 7 string at first glance. And the narrow neck one looked like it impossibly high action, so Hawaiian guitar makes sense. Crazy, I had no idea Selmer was making this stuff

  • Posts: 4,811

    Yeah I thought Risto was the only luthier to have ever made a Selmer style body without cutout.

    Didn't they modify the Hawaiian model body to make the first D holes? I was thinking that Hawaiian guitar was an earlier predecessor to the D hole as we know it. Or maybe they simply produced them side by side.

    Every note wants to go somewhere-Kurt Rosenwinkel
  • ChrisMartinChrisMartin Shellharbour NSW Australia✭✭ Di Mauro x2, Petrarca, Genovesi, Burns, Kremona Zornitsa & Paul Beuscher resonator.
    edited October 2022 Posts: 959

    There is a whole chapter about the Hawaiian models in the François Charle book; he says numbers are not known but he thinks "several dozen must have been made". Certainly they were made pre-WW2 in both 6 and 7 string versions; the latter having an extra tuner added. Charle says "either side of the headstock" with modified casings to fit and the tailpiece was cut down the middle with an extra strip added which had the 7th string post on the underside. Gino Bordin was probably the best known user, but even he switched to the more modern electrics by the late '30s.

    The earliest serial number listed in from 1936 and there are none listed after WW2.

    Those in the book though all seem to have tenth fret dots though except one posed with Bordin that has neither ninth or tenth.

    I guess it is possible that like the Freeman tenors, some may have been modified into regular guitars down the years which might explain the variation on the dot positions.

    billyshakesBillDaCostaWilliams
  • ChrisMartinChrisMartin Shellharbour NSW Australia✭✭ Di Mauro x2, Petrarca, Genovesi, Burns, Kremona Zornitsa & Paul Beuscher resonator.
    Posts: 959

    Those Selmer Hawaiian guitars were part of the late Soren Venema - aka Palm Guitars - collection to be auctioned on 5th November by Vichy-encheres.com.

    There are a few other tasty pieces offered too.

    Here is the link; scroll down if you can't read French, the story is repeated in English half way down the page.

    https://vichy-encheres.com/2022/09/29/palm-guitars/

    BillDaCostaWilliamsbillyshakesAndyWwim
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