Bigtone, your experience??

BluesBop Harry

Hi all,
Lately I've been looking more and more into Bigtones.
I'm scared of installing one on my new Dupont...the need to drill a hole in the top and change the bridge design (heavier) gives me cold chills...I don't want to alter it's acoustic sound.

On the other hand Bigtones seem to be really practical for gigging and lots of pros use them...

I'd like to know your experience with them.



Overall how would you describe the sound (tone /volume)?

Did your acoustic tone suffer as a result of installing a Bigtone bridge?

If you could go back in time and chose again would you still install a Bigtone?

How do you EQ it??

Extra comments??



Should I just get a "combat guitar" and put a Bigtone on that?? Or bite the bullet and compromise my Dupont acoustic sound for a more convenient amplified rig?? What do you think??What would you do???
_________________

MichaelHorowitz

BluesBop Harry wrote:

Overall how would you describe the sound (tone /volume)?

Generally a bit harsh and quacky. But if you've got a good bigtone (not all bigtones are the same) and a good amp (AER is probably the best for a bigtone), then you can soften some of these undesirable attributes. But it's never perfect.

Did your acoustic tone suffer as a result of installing a Bigtone bridge?

Yes, the Dupont and Dell Arte bigtones mute the tone because the bridge is sliced in half and then re-glued. We build them without altering the bridge, so the acoustic tone is unaffected.

How do you EQ it??

Depends on the amp. The AER has a built in preamp that does a lot of EQ for you. In general, you have to cut some highs and boost some bass.

Extra comments??

Bigtones are less about the perfect tone then they are about convenience and reliability. In conjunction with a good amp, you can pretty much be sure of a decent tone at high volumes.

Should I just get a "combat guitar" and put a Bigtone on that?? Or bite the bullet and compromise my Dupont acoustic sound for a more convenient amplified rig?? What do you think??What would you do???

I've never put a bigtone in any of my nicer guitars...just too much of a purist I guess. I always use the Schertler pickups on my nicer guitars.

But Josh and I have been messing around with a DG-340. We installed a Kent Armstrong humbcker and a bigtone and it sounds amazing when amplified. I put some extra heavy Thomastik flatwounds on it and it just sings. Not exactly an "acoustic" tone....but a really reliable gigging guitar that is specialized for amplification. It will soon be a regular option at DjangoBooks....we just need to work a few more details out.

My feeling is that guitars should be specialized for a specific purpose. For acoustic playing use a well made, light weight, guitar with a great bridge and really bright strings. For electric playing use a heavier, more balanced guitar, with mellower strings (for a magnetic pu use heavy nickle or flatwounds.)

I compared my Stimer with the mounted Kent Armstrong and there was no comparison. The Armstrong is so much clearer and defined. And with a little bigtone sound mixed in, you've got an even more realistic tone.

Here 's a few photos:

BluesBop Harry

Thanks Michael!!
That's just what I needed...
At least for the time being I won't mess with my Dupont (i love it too much) and I'll save it for home, recordings and big gigs with PA and a sound engineer...
...and I'll start thinking about getting a good combat guitar with a Bigtone for regular gigs which is what most pros seem to use.
I'm not saying that's the best thing for everyone but I think for me it is.
Thanks a lot to you and everyone else that helped me decide.
Enrique.

A.K. Kibben

Yes, the Dupont and Dell Arte bigtones mute the tone because the bridge is sliced in half and then re-glued. We build them without altering the bridge, so the acoustic tone is unaffected.

Michael,

In what way do you install the piezo without altering and or cutting the bridge in half, then re glue it?

I like the looks of the Kent Armstrong. Small, and clean looking.
I would like to compare the Armstrong next to my Seymour Duncan H2SN. I do believe the H2SN is a hotter pickup, however the Armstrongs are killer pickups!
Nice job Josh.
On some of the Music Link Dell'Arte's I have played have the truss rod to close to the sound hole that prevents installing a neck pickup without covering up alot of the sound hole. Like Robin's.
Don't know about the Manouche's. Haven't seen them yet.

Harry,

You do not have to alter your guitar by drilling a hole in the top or end block by specifying that the small pickup wire be drilled through the side of the bridge (preferably the bass end.)
The wire can then be run along the low E string to the tailpiece to the phone plug mounted externally on the tail piece end plate screws.
No holes anywhere!
Stochelo does this on one of his guitars...

The next pickup bridge I am considering trying is a Thineline, Baggs or a Fishman under a TUSQ saddle. Like the Hahl's Gitano Super De Luxe.
We'll see. Anyone tried this?
It seems to me a person could have a few saddles on hand for shimming the height...

A.K.

HCPhilly

You might want to try the Shertler transducer.
It's less invasive, [it's a stick-on deal].
Michael covered the pickup topic very well a while back.
If you use a Shertler pickup you'll need the Shertler Unico amp.
One of the other good points Re. the pickup is that it's placed on the
top, [not the bridge]. Pickups that are placed in the bridge tend to sound a bit nasal. It's a great solution, IMHO, Plus you can use the pickup on other guitars or instruments. I've used mine on a mandolin with great results.

MichaelHorowitz

A.K. Kibben wrote:

In what way do you install the piezo without altering and or cutting the bridge in half, then re glue it?

That's Josh's secret....

I like the looks of the Kent Armstrong. Small, and clean looking.
I would like to compare the Armstrong next to my Seymour Duncan H2SN. I do believe the H2SN is a hotter pickup, however the Armstrongs are killer pickups!

The Armstrong is very, very hot. I played it on a gig last night and it was the best sound I've ever had. This magnetic/bigtone hybrid works so well in the sorts of restaurants, bars, and clubs that we play in. It's very dry and clear so if there's crowd noise or weird acoustics, you still sound really clear with a big fat tone. A microphone or a Schertler would sound more acoustic, but in my experience these pickups struggle a little more in these sorts of situations. Because they're so natural, the pickup has a lot of "air" in the sound. that results in a more natural, but less dry and direct tone. Works great in a more civilized concert type setting. But if you're dealing with bad acoustics, crowd noise, etc....a nice dry tone is the way to go.

Another nice thing about having such a clear dry sound is that you don't need to turn the amp up as loud. The presence you get with the humbucker allows you to play at lower volumes and still be heard. I used to always use a volume pedal to switch between rhythm and lead levels. But with the humbucker/bigtone setup I don't really need a significantly louder lead level and/or lower rhythm level. I just play rhythm lightly and it's perfect.

I used to always want the most "acoustic" tone possible....but over time I've realized that unless you're playing on a concert stage, you have to make some serious compromises. Instead, my philosophy is not so much to get the most perfect reproduction of the guitars acoustic tone, but rather to get something that sounds nice, works well at high volumes, and is easy to use. So this guitar with a Kent Armstrong/Bigtone really fits the bill. It's a somewhat synthetic sound, but is fat, warm, and pretty much hassle free.

With that said...if I'm playing a wedding ceremony, a small mellow cafe, or a concert, I'd probably just use my Dupont with a microphone or a Schertler. More natural...but for the "loud" gigs I think the Kent Armstrong Gitane is the way to go.

The next pickup bridge I am considering trying is a Thineline, Baggs or a Fishman under a TUSQ saddle. Like the Hahl's Gitano Super De Luxe.
We'll see. Anyone tried this?

I've been thinking about trying this...I have an old Highlander under the saddle pickup that I might try installing in a Gypsy guitar. The problem with all the under the saddle pickups is they all require preamps. So that's an additional piece of equipment...and often the preamps are installed inside the guitar. If you have an oval hole guitar you often can't get the pre amp in there. Even if you can, changing the battery can be really difficult. D holes won't have this problem because of the better access.

The other problem is that a bone and/or wood saddle will probably mute the acoustic tone somewhat. But if it's just a gigging guitar, who cares.

All in all, if you want a piezo, it's hard to beat the sound and convenience of a good bigtone. I'm not really convinced any of the other piezos marketed for flatops would do any better. But's it would be fun to try!

BluesBop Harry

Hi A.K.:
Thanks!
I like that idea about an external bigtone. It takes away the inconvenience of drilling holes and killing your tone with a heavier bridge...or at least make it less relevant, because you can put back your original bridge if you want, for acoustic playing.
Nice idea, I'll contact Josh and give that a try as soon as I can.
This might pretty much solve it for me.

HCPhilly:
I have a Schertler Basik and I love it...I use it for, as Michael put it, "more civilized gigs". But I need something else for regular gigs.
Plus it is kind of a hassle to always have to stick it on and have the tone changing with each different spot, feedback....I guess you can work around that but...
I'm also leaning more toward the AER amp because it has a good reputation, sounds loud and weights about half as much as the Unico.


Michael:
Where do you find Gypsy jazz wedding ceremonies!!!

A.K. Kibben

Where do you find Gypsy jazz wedding ceremonies!!!

Enrique,

Dejarme saber si lo haces nunca a Arizona. ¡Sería grande encontrarte y atasc!

I just did another wedding gig last week in Phoenix. We are booked through an agency that handles corporate and private events only. No bars or clubs.
The even flew Daniele in from San Diego for it!
He used to live and perform in Scottsdale.
These gigs pay extremely well and are held in resorts in the Scottsdale area.
Beautiful settings and great food!
Some of the corporations we have performed for...
Target
Bank of America
Pharmaceutical Conventions
and Weddings too!

A.K.

Heretic

Michael/Josh:

This idea is exactly the kind of lateral thinking that we, as a group, need. Fantastic thinking to use a "working" class guitar combined with a humbucker and a Bigtone to make a balanced sound without the shortcomings of other methodologies. The choice of the Kent Armstrong pickup is brilliant, and blended with the sharpness of a Bigtone bridge pickup it should make a robust trouble-free set up.
You both really should be commended for breaking the rules and the old thinking.
Please keep us posted on more developments. I'd like to see how you fit the pots.

HCPhilly

It's a subjective thing for sure.
As far as venue size, etc.
I first heard the Shertler amp and pickup at a gig that John Jorgenson was doing with Earl Scruggs. He used the amp for a stage monitor and the XLR line out to the PA. The venue had 350 -500 seats from what I recall. He sounded great, there was no feed-back.
I put the pickup in the same place, and sometimes I just leave it on my guitar. You can run the wire under the strings near the tailpiece to keep it out of the way.
If you keep the band's stage volume at a reasonable level it works just fine, [even in close quarters-noisy bar type situations!]
I'd like to check out the Kent-Armstrong pickup at some point.
I've heard the Bigtones a lot, [and the Stimers]. Wrembel uses a bigtone and Dorado and Sampson used Stimers or Bigtones at Birdland, but they still both sound a bit unnatural to my ears.

MichaelHorowitz

Heretic wrote:

You both really should be commended for breaking the rules and the old thinking.

Thanks for the kind words....but we can't really take credit for this as Dupont's Romane model has the same pickup system and has been around for years.



http://www.acoustic-guitars.com/guitare ... ciales.php

I've never had a chance to try one...but it would be interesting to compare it to our modified Gitane. One of the main differences is that the Dupont guitar is built specifically to have a floating humbucker attached. So the neck sits higher then a normal Selmer, allowing space for the floating pickup.

Considering the Romane costs almost $5000 US, it's hard to believe it would sound that much better then the amplified Gitane. But you never know...

Also, Mike Vanden uses something he calls the Memesis system on the guitars he builds for Martin Taylor. Same idea...a bridge piezo blended with a magnetic pickup. His system is pretty sophisticated in that it has a a whole preamp tucked under the pickguard. You can control the blend of the two pickups right on the guitar. I saw Martin perform with this guitar and it sounded great...just plugged it into the house PA and it sounded perfect.




http://www.vanden.co.uk/archtopjazzblendmemisis.htm

Fishman sells a licensed version of the magnetic pickup called the Rare Earth:




http://www.fishman.com/products/details.asp?id=48

Strangely, they don't seem to offer the full Mimesis piezo/magnetic blend. And if you order that from Mike Vanden your spending nearly $1000 just for pickups!!


Before the Vanden guitar. Martin had his own signature model Yamaha which had another version of the bridge piezo/magnetic pickup system. I'd probably buy one of these if they weren't so damn small. Scale legnth is 24 3/4" and the body is 15.5". If you're used to a Selmer this thing feels like a toy. The newer ones seem to be a bit longer now...25.4".



http://yamaha.com/guitars/products/prod ... CT,00.html

Please keep us posted on more developments. I'd like to see how you fit the pots.

I don't plan to install volume pots in this guitar...I don't need them. I just set the volume with my amp and I'm done. But if and when we offer this as a standard model, we'll offer pots as an option. Josh did the same mod to a DG-300 and put two volume pots and toggle switch for the pickups. Unlike mine which runs both pickups to one stereo jack, Josh's allowed you to use any combination of the pickups and then blend it to a mono jack. Unfortunately there was some phase cancellation when blending the two so it didn't really work...but either pickup on it's own was fine and the volume pots worked perfectly.

I prefer having a stereo setup...that way I can run in each pickup into to it's own channel and eq it accordingly. Romane's guitar actually has two separate jack...one for each pickup. But Dupont also builds them like we did, with one stereo jack. I don't know if Dupont has any kind of blending system like the Memesis...I doubt it.

'm