DjangoBooks.com
Welcome to our Community!
Categories
- 18K All Categories
- 401 General
- 258 Welcome
- 11 Archtop Eddy's Corner
- 76 CD, DVD, and Concert Reviews
- 30 FAQ
- 9 Gypsy Jazz Italia
- 17 Photos
- 24 Gypsy Picking
- 3 Unaccompanied Django
- 1 Pearl Django Play-Along Vol.1
- 1 Gypsy Fire
- 23 Gypsy Rhythm
- 562 Gypsy Jazz University - Get Educated
- 106 Gypsy Jazz 101
- 178 Repertoire
- 130 History
- 91 Technique
- 40 Licks and Patterns
- Daniel Givone Manouche Guitare Method Users Group
- 17 Eddie Lang Club
- 1K Gypsy Jazz Gear
- 663 Guitars, Strings, Picks, Amps, Pickups and Other Accessories
- 322 Classifieds
- 37 Recording
- 38 Other Instruments
- 17 Violin
- 3 Mandolin
- 6 Accordion
- 3 Bass
- 9 Woodwinds
- 202 Gypsy Jazz Events
- 80 North America
- 82 Europe
- 40 International
In this Discussion
Who's Online 0
Today's Birthdays
Comments
however, it took months to get together, and ive been playing a long time.
i started with the metronome on 50, playing the good old f major 1st pos.
bar chord and its arpeggio going up and down the neck. i spent weeks feeling like i was wasting my time and it would never happen, one day, there it was.
btw- i used a bar chord instead of an open chord because after all those hours gripping an f, the fret hand muscles could really feel the difference,
and one thing i've found about this style of music, aside from the downstrokes, is the necessity of strength in the fret hand. its completely different from sweeping through metel arps and chunky palm muting with 9 gauge strings on an ibanez, or blazing through blues licks with heavy strings tuned down . anyway, these people are soo right, this rest stroke technique does make a big difference, but you must be committed to sticking it out through the adjustment period. good luck !
I get the impression that many of them haven't worked on their technique to the point that their upstrokes are as strong as their downstrokes. Hence they think downstrokes create a better tone. It simply isn't true. Note that in classical all notes are struck with an upward motion. One guy on here tried to say that due to the fact that it is a specific type of acoustic guitar as opposed to a classical or electric that it requires a certain technique. That is also completely false. One thing that all guitars have in common is that they have strings that must be struck with a controlled amount of force. The fact that these guys haven't developed their up strokes and are buying into some traditional dogma shouldn't compel you to adopt their inferior techniques. My advice is to listen to Gypsy Jazz for it's interesting harmonic content but by no means listen to guys o this forum about technique unless you specifically want to sound exactly like Django.
And keep in mind that even Django would have preferred to use all of his fingers and even Django surely would have learned something about technique in the past 50 years.
Segovia was a master in his day but his fingerings by todays standards are completely antiquated.
Jimi Hendrix was a master of his idiom but he didn't even bother to use the pinky of his left hand.
Django was a great stylist but his technique was severely limited by today's standards.
My point is that many of the greats had flawed technique that you shouldn't emulate. Many of them were exceptional to the degree that they got away with breaking basic rules that most of us would be wise to follow.
It's not just music either. Check out how many boxers get knocked out trying to emulate Muhammad Ali's style.
And should basketball players play with their tongues hanging out of their mouths because Michael Jordan played that way?
Ultimately Django was a great player. But there was only one Django. Be inspired by him. Use his ideas to help your own music to evolve. But don't fall into the trap many on thi forum have fallen into. You will never be Django. But ultimately you will be you. And that's even better.
Final advice:
Whatever picking patterns you adopt be sure to practice slowly and use a metronome.
You can build almost any fingering up to a good speed by doing this. If you choose to alternate pick you will need to pay special attention to making the upstrokes have a good tone. If you choose the traditional Gypsy picking you will have to adhere to it strictly and put in quite a bit of time getting your hands synchronized.
I think there's room in this forum for a little healthy debate. In the end however you choose to pick I look forward to hearing some great music from all of you.
Best of luck.
Hi Cantzon,
I've been following the posts lately about 'Gypsy Picking' and I think you raise some good points. At the same time, I feel like you, because of your classical history, might be a special case (maybe like Sylvain Luc) and that the average player might be better off sticking with the 'dogma'. Like you wrote about some of the greats:
I think you're saying that what's called 'Gypsy Picking', for lack of a better term, is them breaking the basic rules-that it's inefficient because it forces a player to use downstrokes when an upstroke would be easier. But I think in the idiom those are the basic rules, just as you mentioned upstrokes being the rule in classical playing.
I don't play any classical pieces, but I wonder why they're played that way, and if they would sound the same played with a picking style that wasn't based on the classical tradition. Could most of those pieces be played with only downstrokes? If not, why is the upstroke the standard?
One thing I haven't seen much talk of is rhythm...for me, the picking style is at least as much about the rhythm it produces as the tone; so many lines in the style just flow with certain picking styles that it's hard to picture them any other way. Can you elaborate on your feelings about that?
I suspect that most of here (at least the sane ones) are using all our fingers whenever we can. About Django's technique-I'm sure he would have changed a bit (that's the thread of all threads, by the by), but it's hard to imagine him changing his whole technique after a lifetime of playing a certain way-much like your own situation, I think. We keep with what's comfortable, by and by.
Hear hear!
best,
Jack.
I would advise most people new to this style to follow the basic rules outlined if they intend to stick only to this style.
I don't pretend for a moment that I only intend to play this style. I'm actually infusing certain elements of gypsy jazz into my own style because I enjoy studying different types of music and it helps my overall perspective on music and makes life more interesting.
But a little rocking of the boat is always a good thing as long as it is kept in perspective. I think some people may have gotten the impression I am a beginner who wants to break all of the rules and become a proficient Gypsy Jazz specialist. I probably should have explained that I am an outsider mining gypsy jazz for good ideas. I will never be an authentic Gypsy. Maybe the guy in Wisconsin thinks he can pull it off. Best wishes to him.
I'm out to be the next Django in my own genre. Maybe I'll fall flat on my face and people will hate what I create. But at the end of the day I will have gone out on a limb to be original. I also respect what others who have gone before me. I constantly study many different styles of music and incorporate them into my playing.
So while everyone here is trying their best to emulate a great guitar player, and I'm not saying that isn't a valid thing to do, we are all different. Some of us want to make our own mark on music in a different way. There is more than one way to skin a cat and in the realm of music more than one cat to skin. A metaphor by the way...apologies to PETA members.
What do you mean by inefficient? In my opinion GP is one of the most efficient plectrum techniques available, and I've played classical guitar for four years, and have used economy, hybrid and alternate picking.
By efficient I mean that you get the best possible sound (volume and tone) with the least amount of force. Speed is another benefit, but for me tone is foremost, what's the point of playing lightning fast if nobody can hear you or cares to.
My point: the effort /tone ratio of GP is hard to beat, thus making it very efficient.
By that statement i get the impression you still don't understand the basics of what GP is all about.
I mean it's like criticizing the ending of a movie you haven't even seen...
Why don't you get the Gypsy Picking book, read it, understand it and then talk.
What about all the notes the thumb plays?
And anyway it's not even about the direction of the strokes but the kind of strokes, rest strokes or free strokes.
You have to agree that, in classical guitar technique, it would be very hard if not impossible to make your free strokes sound like "apoyandos" consistently.
You're saying stuff like that and attacking Django, Hendrix and Segovia.
Who are you??
http://www.tuckandpatti.com/pick-finger_tech.html
Enjoy...
A.K.
With alternate picking the difficulty will come with the up stroke on string crosses. There are many exercises designed to specifically address this problem.
With what gypsy players call the rest stroke there are going to be big synchronization problems. It is also extremely inefficient for playing descending runs with an odd number of notes on the string. I've noticed that many gypsy players work around this by memorizing prerehearsed sequences that optimize the benefits of the rest stroke and avoid difficult sequences. A problem that can arise from this is that players will end up playing the same predefined licks over and over. That is not exactly improvising although it can sound really cool. The guys at the higher level can sort of disguise the fact that they play things in a very familiar way every time but people who aren't masters will need to be aware of this pitfall and make efforts to, either develop a huge vocabulary of licks or plan strategies for improvising using this inefficient method.
But look. I'm not attacking the gypsy technique. I'm just telling the truth. If you want to pretend that this picking technique is perfect and has no drawbacks you are shooting yourself in the foot. That's your business but there are new people here and they have asked questions. You will answer one way and I will answer another. We have a difference of opinion. In my world that's ok and even desirable. Thank God we are all different and there are so many cool styles to listen to and enjoy.
Also I didn't attack Segovia, Hendrix, and Django. I love all of those players. But all had limitations.
Django had limited use of his left hand.
Hendrix didn't use the pinky of his left hand and Segovia refused to use the pinky of his left hand, saying that it wasn't strong enough.
Barrios actually responded to Segovia, "Well why don't you just cut it off then?"
Look, I don't care if you are married to this idea of the rest stroke being the be all end all technique but don't try to convince me it is efficient especially if you are using it on descending passages.
I'm not alone in my thinking. Read this review from Amazon. It is spot on. Django's True Spirit, May 11, 2005
By George H. Vasquez - See all my reviews
I highly recommend this book. I don't understand why some reviewers would criticize it. The transcriptions and tabs are flawless and the performances are spirited. I really enjoyed the CD.
Now about the infamous "rest stroke". This stroke came from banjo technique before amplification. In Eddie Lang's 1930's guitar method he claimed that alternate picking was not a good idea because of "volume" in bands. I own Michael Horowitz's book "Gypsy Picking". It's a great book for the style, but in it he states that it is not conducive to bebop. I think this goes for any modern jazz, including modal and free jazz as well. It's too choppy for this later style (Listen to Joe Pass on "Cherokee" on his album "Virtuoso" to see just how limiting this picking is. It sounds choppy and focuses too much on the down beat instead of the subtle syncopation of later jazz, not to mention how sloppy it gets at these speeds. The Ferrer brothers (Boulou & Elios Ferre) have the same trouble when they play modern jazz-again the speed). WARNING!: Doing "Giant Steps" with the rest stroke can cause a brain aneurism, so please, don't try it without proper supervision.
If you want to just play Django "prewar" and use a "Selmer Maccaferri" type guitar and be some kind of Django petrified jazz manouche clone, I would recommend the rest stroke (I've even read you should use only two fingers while playing his solos, as though Django wouldn't have done anything to have all his fingers back. Maybe you should buy some butane and orchestrate your own caravan fire to be really authentic). This sort of imitation is not flattering to Django memory and I think, pure silliness.
I would recommend alternate picking unless you want to ignore the last 50 years in jazz and the invention of the amplifier. And yes, you can get a powerful and beautiful sound on an acoustic guitar with alternate picking. Check out the Al Dimeola's instructional tape by REH Video (Warner Brothers Publishing). You can argue with his content or musical ideas but not with his superb technique. I also recommend John McLaughlin's acoustic work such as "Qué Alegría" or "My Goal is Beyond" (rare and expensive) . This speed and virtuosity is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to get with the "rest stroke". By the way, Django himself moved on to other guitars such as gibson and other arch tops and incorporated bebop ideas in his solos. Toward the end of his life he was upset that people couldn't or wouldn't accept his new form of playing, just like Hendrix, Coltrane and other great musicians and painters.
What I would recommend is what Wes Montgomery did. He transcribed every Charlie Christian solo he could get his hand on, and then went somewhere completely different with it. Charlie Parker learned Lester Young solos and went somewhere else with that as well. The same could be said for Bob Dylan and folk music, or Hendrix and the blues.
Live in the true spirit of Django. Buy this wonderful book. Learn the solos. Study the content of the solos and the PLEASE...go somewhere NEW, beautiful and completely, unexpected with it the way Django would have. Now that's real "bal musette".
[which has probably been already well covered mant times before].
Cantzon said
"Hence they think down strokes create a better tone"
Someone else mentioned tone also. Rest strokes with pick or fingers/thumb are an integral part of styles like Gypsy Jazz, Flamenco and classical guitar. Segovia, who like Django basically invented the
style, [are at least codified and popularized the style bringing it to the world's attention]. Rest strokes were a big part of his sound, along with high action. Yes, it's true that modern classical players don't use as many rest strokes as Segovia, but they still help to give a guitar a big sound. Needless to say, Rest strokes [apoyado], sound different than
free strokes, [played with or without a pick].
Check out a book called "Tone production on the Classical Guitar,"
by Taylor. The author is a classical guitarist and a physicist,
[wow do I feel like a slacker! ], he shows how rest strokes actually cause the top of the guitar to move top to bottom, because the force is applied towards the guitar, whereas free strokes cause the guitar to vibrate from
side to side. I'd also argue than in general rest strokes do have more tone. I know that players like Bireli use trad jazz picking, sweeps etc. at times, but but, hey if you sound like him, you can do whatever you want
Some of the best performances that I 've been a part of were
gigs where we ended up playing totally acoustically.
The only way to really take charge when you solo in that kind of setting is to use Gypsy Picking, alternate picking just won't cut it, and it'll sound pretty weak. Yes, it's not easy. but most things worthwhile aren't .
BTW, I have gradually raised my action, which really helps with sound overall. lastly, as was already mentioned, the accents are very important in this style, [as in Flamenco], if you eliminate the rest strokes and repeated down strokes you don't get the accents. Lastly,
when I hear someone that seems to want to play this style, playing a selmac, but they haven't really taken the time to learn the picking, it usually is pretty weak all-round, and most of the time the players lack the swing, drive and excitement of the Gypsy jazzers, [Just my 2 cents!]
Cheers,
Barr
There is NO picking style that doesn't have SOME drawbacks. Alternate picking, crosspicking, economy picking, rest stroke GJ, classical fingerstyle, Travis/Atkins picking- all have their weak points. There is no one size fits all.
There is NO player of ANY kind of music on ANY instrument that ISN'T limited in some way. You won't hear Bream playing Yamashita anymore than you'll hear Tony Rice play Paul Gilbert- and until they make some kind of human cloning real, limitations will define style.
Yes, many of the people on this board are intrigued by Django. I have little desire to 'copy licks' from the current generation of players, but I have been deeply interested in Django (and some of his contemporaries) for a long time. It wasn't until I learned about the rest stroke technique that I could get the VIBE, even though I knew the LINES.
Does the technique dictate the lines? Somewhat. There are types of lines that GJ technique doesn't suit- as well as other types of lines that are not well served by other techniques!
If you CAN play a variety of techniques, you CAN play a variety of lines-simple as that!
The boat you are missing:
It's all about the articulation.
It is also the by-product of hundreds of years of ACOUSTIC music- you know, the pre-unplugged kind, where you had to be heard over the drunks with no PA system or leather pants to help you get across...advocating techniques used by electric players as being "better" and "more efficient" ignores the fact that electric guitars and acoustic guitars are very different beasts, unless you hop on the 'unplugged' bandwagon.
It is admirable to know a lot of different ways to play, but just because someone can play (for example) virtuoso level bluegrass doesn't mean they can just jump in and play Gypsy Swing in a manner that would convince listeners who truly knew the style, any more than a rock guitarist can just jump in and play convincing bluegrass. There are a lot of specific things to learn, and the right techniques are VERY important. Blow them off at your own peril...or better yet, come to an actual Gypsy jam session (maybe at Samois) and give them the insulting speech you've posted here.
There is such a thing as a dilletante, a dabbler, someone who just picks up the superficial mannerisms of a style without 'going deep'. If you are going to play Django style, why not learn how he got THAT sound? It's a lot more fun to do the "When in Rome" thing, musically, and be able to pull it off, and will make you look better than asserting that thousands of Gypsy style players are all going about playing music wrong :twisted:
I've never heard Django play a note without commitment.