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I apologize if this has been beaten to death, gotten out of hand and some of you feel is best to quit arguing and move on. I just can't have peace of mind until I've said what I feel needs to be said and I do think "there's room in this forum for a little healthy debate".
So please bear with me and if you're not interested just, go straight to the next post or close this window and go on to some of the other great things this site has to offer.
Cantzon,
I don't mean to be rude but having read your posts in this forum from the last few days, frankly I'm fed up with your pretentious attitude and I feel you have really stepped out of line.
You obviously think very high of yourself and feel you're qualified to talk about Jazz manouche technique because you have experience in other musical areas. Needless to say that assumption is wrong. You may be an advanced player in other genres but when it comes to Jazz manouche you're an absolute beginner , a newbie and are in no position to give advice to anybody about anything really.
You keep referring to the "Gypsy Picking" technique as inefficient and inferior when it's clear you don't really understand it and so can't really appreciate it's benefits or judge it's disadvantages (which it definitely has).
Even if you can't believe it, one can play very fast and clean with it, even on decending odd-notes-per-string lines, which are used quite often, just listen to Bireli, Stochelo, Jimmy or Andreas, and no they are not just playing prerehearsed licks. I may be biased but in my opinion, Dimeola and Mclaughlin are good, technically (I don't like them musically) but not really at that level of virtuosity in acoustic guitar playing, and surely not above it. And even though you may be good at what you do I seriously doubt you can compare yourself and your guitar techniques to any of them in any way, and so you really don't have the authority to say anything bad about their picking techniques.
It's bad enough to write about things you don't know, but it's worse to quote someone else writing about things they don't know.
From the Amazon review:
"Now about the infamous "rest stroke". This stroke came from banjo technique before amplification"
False, it's actually much older, probably the oldest plectrum technique there is.
And... First, What's that got to do with anything? you living in Bogota and seeing people live in very bad conditions and the rest.
Also, You seem to have an erroneous idea of gypsies, for one thing most of them own very expensive guitars, along with very expensive cars, and they live in caravans because they chose to, it's the way of life they like, not just the one they can afford.
And anyway being gypsy really doesn't matter, there's plenty of first class players in this style that are not gypsies and they can play it just as authentically, I think.
It's about the music and playing it right.
So in the future, I think you'd better quit talking about stuff you don't understand and go quietly learning what you want about this music in order to pursuit your goal of being "the next Django of your own genre".
And if I've said something that's not true or have personally offended anyone, I apologize in advance and I will take it back if you prove me wrong.
Respectfully,
BluesBop Harry.
When I said Gypsy picking is inefficient I am specifically referring to odd not grouping being played descending. If you start on a down stroke it is inefficient.
That doesn't mean that it is bad or not useful but it is inferior with regard to efficiency in this area.
As for the Colombia comment it was specifically a response to the guy from Wisconsin who sayed that because he comes from the lower rungs of the socio-economic hierarchy that he is a gypsy.
He is the one with an erroneous sense of what it is to be a gypsy.
I never claimed to be a gypsy.
And my initial post was a response from someone who asked the best way to pick a specific pattern. I gave him the obvious answer. It is true I am new to this group and was unfamiliar with what they are calling a rest stroke. My background is classical and obviously picks are not used.
However, the picking pattern I gave him was a good one although it apparently doesn't fit the gypsy jazz model.
As for the quote about the rest stroke coming from the banjo, it was from someone else. I quoted his review of a Django book on Amazon. I didn't want to pull a quote out of context. The part I agreed with him on was the part about using the study of a style to grow musically in an effort to develop your own voice as opposed to rehashing what has already been done.
A final note. I've been watching quite a few of these gypsy jazz guys on you tube. Often when they do a down up down down pattern they are actually driving through the second string. This is known as economy picking a la Frank Gambale although he reverses the sequence when descending. If they want to call that rest stroke technique that's fine but it has very little in common with the classical rest stroke.
Ok so many of you think I'm a jerk or am arrogant. I don't care. Your opinion of me means less than nothing. I think we've gotten a pretty good discussion going that has probably helped clarify things for some people. And isn't that really the point of having a forum like this?
By disagreeing with you I've given you an opportunity to explain a technique that is dear to you. You've had the chance to expound on the virtues of Gypsy picking vis-a-vis other alternatives.
I am confident that people will be able to make up their own minds about the virtues and drawbacks of the various picking styles.
One thing to remember, we are all guitarists here. I'm sure you have argued your point for the purpose of helping others to better enjoy creating music. I am doing the same thing. In the end we are both trying to help. Life is complicated. Sometimes different people will see different solutions to the same problem.
Anyway, I'm off to practice. Being an arrogant jerk means I have to back it up.
Happy picking!
When I said Gypsy picking is inefficient I am specifically referring to odd not grouping being played descending. If you start on a down stroke it is inefficient.
That doesn't mean that it is bad or not useful but it is inferior with regard to efficiency in this area.
As for the Colombia comment it was specifically a response to the guy from Wisconsin who sayed that because he comes from the lower rungs of the socio-economic hierarchy that he is a gypsy.
He is the one with an erroneous sense of what it is to be a gypsy.
I never claimed to be a gypsy.
And my initial post was a response from someone who asked the best way to pick a specific pattern. I gave him the obvious answer. It is true I am new to this group and was unfamiliar with what they are calling a rest stroke. My background is classical and obviously picks are not used.
However, the picking pattern I gave him was a good one although it apparently doesn't fit the gypsy jazz model.
As for the quote about the rest stroke coming from the banjo, it was from someone else. I quoted his review of a Django book on Amazon. I didn't want to pull a quote out of context. The part I agreed with him on was the part about using the study of a style to grow musically in an effort to develop your own voice as opposed to rehashing what has already been done.
A final note. I've been watching quite a few of these gypsy jazz guys on you tube. Often when they do a down up down down pattern they are actually driving through the second string. This is known as economy picking a la Frank Gambale although he reverses the sequence when descending. If they want to call that rest stroke technique that's fine but it has very little in common with the classical rest stroke.
Ok so many of you think I'm a jerk or am arrogant. I don't care. Your opinion of me means less than nothing. I think we've gotten a pretty good discussion going that has probably helped clarify things for some people. And isn't that really the point of having a forum like this?
By disagreeing with you I've given you an opportunity to explain a technique that is dear to you. You've had the chance to expound on the virtues of Gypsy picking vis-a-vis other alternatives.
I am confident that people will be able to make up their own minds about the virtues and drawbacks of the various picking styles.
One thing to remember, we are all guitarists here. I'm sure you have argued your point for the purpose of helping others to better enjoy creating music. I am doing the same thing. In the end we are both trying to help. Life is complicated. Sometimes different people will see different solutions to the same problem.
Anyway, I'm off to practice. Being an arrogant jerk means I have to back it up.
Happy picking!
Also it was not my intention to be mean so don't take things the wrong way.
I'm standing by my previous post, just so we're clear on that.
We are not agreeing on what efficiency means...
I'm getting that to you the most efficient technique would be the one that's most conducive to speed with the least effort. Right?
To me it's the technique that's conducive to speed and the best sound (tone and volume), with the least effort.
Since we're on the Gypsy jazz context it's all in relation to acoustic instruments, which are prevalent in the style, so volume it's really important.
So I maintain that GP is more efficient, relative to my explanation, in all the cases even descending odd note groupings, keep in mind speed is not the priority to me, but sound
And so although economy picking and alternate picking could yield greater speed they compromise sound (tone and volume) in relation to GP, therefore being less efficient by my definition.
There's just no contest in terms of sound (tone and volume) between rest strokes and free strokes, try it yourself and I'm sure you'll agree.
If you're still confused "rest" and "free" strokes with a pick are just the same as in classical technique, so if you can try it on a nylon string, it's don't really matter.
If you talk about the best (most efficient) picking on electric, where you don't need to worry so much about sound, that's something else. But this forum is not the place for that, I think.
Now for the number one thing I don't think you get...
You don't have to choose just one technique.
Is possible, in fact I would recommend, that you learn several techniques so you'll be better equipped for any musical situation.
No one is telling you to abandon alternate picking, and the other techniques. I'm encouraging you to learn a new one, Gypsy Picking.
Stop putting learning down.
That's why I said Bireli is superior in terms of technical proficiency to guys like Dimeola.
Bireli can do what Dimeola but not the other way around.
In my experience GP, is much more difficult to learn, and that is the main reason why a lot of people are reluctant to.
Alternate is, naturally, so much easier to ingrain, and economy picking is kinda in between.
It is advised that until you have fully acquired GP you don't use another plectrum technique in order to more rapidly "teach" your muscles what to do without "them" getting confused. OK?
But once you know it you can begin using the pick in other ways, like many more modern players do, depending on the context.
If you decide to get into Jazz Manouche, even in a semi-serious manner, I'd say learn GP, you'll be glad you did and in the end you'll have another tool in you box.
If you are just passing through then just stick to what you know.
But anyway you chose to go, please stop advising people not to learn it, that's just foolish.
First, I didn't say I come from the "lower rungs of the socio economic hierarchy". I said my ancestors did, which is probably not quite true, seeing that although Gypsies and Jews have always been lumped together, they were given a pretty good run under the Ottoman Empire and actually allowed to participate in economic activities with a greater degree of freedom than they could elsewhere (They also developed the basic form of the music which the Gypsies adopted and we are currently playing). Next, I am not from Wisconsin, I only live here. I am from a village in New York which last time I looked (insert gag reflex here) has the one of the higher per capita incomes in the United States - needless to say, I got out of there at the earliest opportunity. But the fact that you had to seize on my background, which you know nothing about (right now I only wish I could afford a Gypsy type caravan, maybe I could make it to one of these festivals) was just another aspect of your bragging narcissism, this time offering the people who your girlfriend has helped in some idiotic contest of a race to the bottom, which I find pathetic, AND AGAIN, IRRELEVANT AND OFF-TOPIC, as has been pointed out.
So now let me clue you in, and try to read this carefully for a change, since I realize that people with narcissistic personality disorder are invariably NEVER WRONG as you so amply demonstrate time and again in your posts.
Here it is (are you ready?)
NOBODY HERE CARES WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE RELATIVE MERITS OF ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF GYPSY JAZZ. We all know that there are alternative ways of doing things, and we don't need you to point that out to us. We are here because we love this style of playing. WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR YOUR TAKE ON THINGS, BECAUSE WHEN IT COMES TO GYPSY JAZZ, YOU KNOW NEXT TO NOTHING. I don't know how many times from how many people in how many different ways you have been told this. You could be the greatest student of classical in the world, and it wouldn't matter because it is irrelevant. You are simply disrupting the comity of this forum, a comity that is built on mutual interest and involvement, with your half baked egocentric opinions, based on your personal evaluations according to your standards of achievement.
SO PLEASE (ARE YOU STILL PAYING ATTENTION?) DON'T COME IN HERE WITH YOUR 8 POSTS AND SET YOURSELF UP AS SOME EXPERT.
You are not clarifying anything for anybody, because your particular field of expertise (such as it is) is not needed here. It is only getting in the way of what we are trying to do, the way that it is done. So just take a seat in the back, like myself and every other newbie here, zip it and try to learn something.
That's it, FLAME OFF. :twisted:
Whew, that's the longest I've gone without trying to be humorous, I think I almost died!
- E
best,
Jack.
Thanks for the clarification Jack. Guess I stepped in it this time.
Sorry and my apologies to everyone!
Chip
P.S.: Can't we all just get along?
Oh and Elliot I'm totally jealous, I miss Madison so much. I spent the first eighteen years of my life on the near east side, off of Willy st. I haven't been back for a visit in over a year and I'm starting to get feverish.
Also in case you don't already know about the Midwest Gypsy Swing Festival in Fitchburg in september I want to mention it. It looks like one of the best lineups the festival has ever had. Kruno Spisic, Stephane Wrembel, Alfonso Ponticelli, and Harmonious Wail are playing. I was going to try and travel west to see it, but I've got a gig that night, :? oh well.
I'm also with Chip on this whole business of getting along.
Cool. I'm finished with the flame game now, on to the good times.
I'll definitely be there. I really like Kruno and Wrembel, and even though Harmonious Wail sounds a bit on the Texas side of swing to me, they're all fine musicians as well. Too bad you're not going, but next time you stop over, make sure you drop by. I'm an East Sider as well (of course!) - we'll close the Crystal Corner together.
Speaking of cool, if anybody is near Chicago on 7/28, me and Mike Bauer have plans to meet up at the coolest Jazz bar in the midwest, the Green Mill, to see Alfonso Ponticelli. Should be a hell of a time, so come join us. Cantzon will be there as well, and he's already promised to buy the first round.
Just kidding, but you're invited anyway, Cantzon, you twisted MF!!!!
Note that in classical all notes are struck with an upward motion.
Not so, Cantzon!
Actually, the thumb plays downward [obviuosly].
Using the thumb for rest strokes to bring out a melody,
really works nicely, as in some of the Villa Lobos pieces,
for example, but I'm sure that you knew that! :P
Cheers,
Barr
As I stated earlier every technique will have its own set of difficulties.
Because alternate picking has the up stroke in odd places it is necessary for alternate pickers to work hard to make all strokes even. Up strokes must generate the same tone as down strokes.
I am currently doing it on a Santa Cruz with .13 gague strings. When I worked in a guitar store back in the states we frequently carried Gypsy Jazz guitars. They had much lighter strings and were much much easier to play. I see no reason whatsoever that up strokes would not be able to create exactly the same tone as a downstroke.
Another person here pointed out that it is not necessary to adhere to just one picking technique. I also agree with this. I frequently use a dudd picking sequence.
But I have always called that economy picking. If you drive the pick through two strings it is not a rest stroke, or at least if it is it is a completely different idea than the one posed in classical.
Another person mentioned that in classical many of the notes are played with the thumb. Well yes of course. But generally on speedy runs, and I'm not talking about a four or five note tremelo, a person is going to use some combination of i. m, a which will then all be up strokes.
Finally as for ascending passages feeling natural when played with gypsy picking...yes it may feel natural. But it is not more efficient. You can do it that way and I've seen it done well but it is less efficient. I can generate the same tone with my technique. Ultimately we may both achieve identical results in terms of sound and speed. People from the alternate picking side would say you'll never build up the speed. People from the Gypsy side would say you'll sacrifice tone. I think in the short term both are right but in the long run with enough practice both of those difficulties can be overcome.
Unless Wisconsin guy posts something nasty I'm out of here. You guys seem to have your way of doing things and you have made it clear that my input is not welcome. Best of luck with the guitar.