A Downstroke Dillema...

djangology

Moerman was wrong. Copying solos doesn't mean "nothing". The "poetry" is between the notes. There is a vast universe between each copied and memorized note, as it is played.

much of what we call gypsy jazz today is totally technique- and riff-driven, and that usually comes at the expense of musicality and originality

but, at the expense of originality and melodic ideas, one thing that gypsy jazz emphasizes, and succeeds in, beyond all other forms of guitar jazz, is the "phrasing" of those un-original ideas. a gypsy jazz might not have as well developed melodic ideas and musical sense, but rhythmically and phrasing wise, is probably could not be exceeded by any other style, ESPECIALLY when a lead is accompanied by a good gypsy jazz rhythm player.

i think what attracts people to gypsy jazz is this different approach to jazz, and I think it not any less worthy than bebob or jazz fusion. in fact, what makes gypsy jazz cool is somewhat the same as what made BB King cool. it was the way that he pronounced his musical sentences, not necessarily the originality of the musical ideas. the only difference is BB plays slower.

I say we stop ignoring the obvious merit of gypsy jazz and embrace it and realize that it cannot be ALL things but there are features in modern gypsy jazz music that are very admirable still...

scot

You can disagree with Francis' opinion, but I don't think you can say he was wrong. A better translation would have been "copying solos gains you nothing". Francis, like most well-known gypsy jazz musicians of his generation, was a professional musician and could do things like play in any key, do orchestral dates, play all sorts of ethnic music - all the things a big-city professional musician was expected to do. In that era, nearly all jazz musicians (including gypsy jazz musicians) were similarly skilled, and most of them, like jazz musicians everywhere, were interested in developing their own voice. That meant playing their own solos and chords. I'd guess that the majority of people playing this kind of music today possess skills that are different than those of the earlier generation. And the music changed some to accommodate this.

It is possible and desirable to play music that is clearly gypsy jazz but does not copy solos or rely on codified riffs and phrases. This has been done by many talented guitarists over the decades. One thing that this accomplishes is it makes this music more enjoyable for folks other than men with guitars. Alma Sinti and Pearl Django are much more agreeable to my non-musician friends than Jimmy Rosenberg etc.

And you CAN play "macho" guitar driven music without copying. As an example, I have attached an mp3 of Matelot Ferret's trio playing "Some of These Days" back in 1986. It's gypsy jazz but it's original from start to finish. The concert this recording comes from is a textbook of how to play the standard repertoire - Minor Swing, Nuages, Swing 39, etc - without ever copying anything. Matelot was old then and if his technique wasn't perfect, it doesn't matter. His head was still full of ideas. The first 17 seconds of this is blank and the recording quality isn't the best but try to look beyond that. It's a real "tour de force" of guitar playing. It doesn't appear to be too difficult either - at first. You really have to have your double-stops nailed to play this way.

Our style of music traditionally covered a lot of ground and provided room for all sorts of ideas. There's no need to change that today.

djangology

Scot, I love your opinion, your by far the most knowledgable gypsy jazz person that I know, and I certainly agree with you in many ways, and I love it when you mention bits of history. Thanks for posting the wonderful Mp3. :-)

So, I listened to the whole thing twice and, although the song is extremely entertaining and first rate gypsy jazz, I don't hear much that is original to my well listened ear. I would say that I hear most modern players playing just about every lick in that version of "Some Of these Days" although that is the oldest recording of Some of These days I have heard besides Djangos. Djangos original version, on the other hand, has a few things in it that I dont hear other people play, and I can also recognize on particular line in Djangos version which was obviously borrowed for the main theme and heavily modified/improved by modern players.

Just my opinion, but I think the modern guys are doing good things for the music, and not always taking Django literally note for note. It has always been my opinion that in the modern world, with modern instruments, that a higher level of musicianship can be attained with less effort that it did in the past, especially with the help of computers, and especially for people who would otherwise not have been more musically inclined.

scot

Well, thanks for the compliment Jon. But I don't understand your logic - this is an old recording, and though you say hear many of these licks being played by modern players (I don't hear that at all, please give an example) you don't see it as original playing. Believe me, the younger players might have copied from Matelot, but it did not happen the other way around since he's been in the ground since 1989. And, like his sons, Matelot did not copy anyone. Please explain.

djangology

Scot, here is a breakdown of what I thought right away:

1:24 - 2:18 first guitar
   1:27-1:30 nice rehearsed arpeggio pattern
   1:30-1:36 chaotic approach notes to the arp
   1:40-1:43 nice arpeggio again
   1:43-1:50 nothing special
   1:50-2:01 chaotic approach notes to the arp again
   2:01-2:15 chaotic octave rhythm stuff
   2:15-2:18 nice ending arp
2:18 - 3:10    guitar #2
   whoever this is, they are having trouble keeping up
   2:54-3:07 very non-musical patterns not any closer than a whole tone scale
   3:10-3:16 rehearsed pattern
   3:16- 3:36 it gets worse
3:36 -4:32 
   3:36-3:54 rudimentary octave rhythm pattern, not very musical
   3:54-4:02 almost something cool
   4:02-4:09 a very well used pattern by modern players and very rehearsed, probably stolen lick from someone
   4:09-4:16 something creative, i give him that
   4:17-end  just some very simple octave rhythmic stuff then a regular tag

I am just critizing this particular song, not Matelot in general, just so you know... I have probably never heard most of his stuff...

scot

Jon - I appreciate your analysis, it's a unique thing. In 30+ years of playing music I have never seen anything quite like it. But, continuing this exchange would be pointless, because we aren't talking about the same things.

Best
Scot

djangology

Well, we are obviously coming from different points of view. I have only been playing guitar for 7 years now and performing for 3 and a half. I didn't mean to offend you at all.

I happen to be one of the dogmatic zealots that you referred to and there is a reason for my madness. I find that without focus on learning this particular style, my part-time guitar playing will never really progress. It takes everything I have just to keep a few waltzes memorized and a few Django solos. Every year its a little easier, but at this rate I cannot afford to to delve into other styles so much.

I find it refreshing that the elite modern players are experimenting with other things and not following Djangos path exactly, and so I agree with you on the whole. For me in particular, and people like me, who play guitar part-time, our approach must be a little different in my opinion.

SwedeinLA

Hybrid picking is by default the ultimate picking technique. It's in the name. Fingers and pick at the same time, or fingers alone, or pick alone (GJ, sweep, alternate, etc) You only have to learn to move the pick between the "use" position, and the not use position (tucked away). Me personally tuck it between the 1st and 2nd finger.

By default I mean. You have access at a moments notice to all the various techniques with no lag time. You can go between a gypsy gig, jazz gig, fusion gig, country gig all at the same time.