Stochelo teaches "Dinette"

Passacaglia

Wow. That's wild. I'm going to have to retrain my eyes then, obviously. These downstrokes must be really, really minute then, on a single string, at least I can't make them out? I only ask because I count less strokes than notes - and I know hammer ons were weird, but I think I'm trying to explain my eyes...probably not the best logic to leap. :oops:

I stand corrected. I appreciate the learning.

Paul

Hemert

Yes, really minute and they're free strokes (free stroke, rest stroke, free, rest, free, rest and so on) and that is an important point which I was trying to make. Btw, there's nothing wrong with alternate strokes of course, many people do this and they sound great. Just realize that a big part of Stochelo's sound is his phrasing which in turns is a result of all those downstrokes. I call it "interrupted sweeping": you sweep two notes, you interrupt and start sweeping to notes again starting on the same string you just stopped and repeat.

In spite of what most people think this is not so hard to learn. You need the right exercises and some technical guidance so as not train it in the wrong way. If you watch Amund Lauritzen on YouTube who was a student of RA from day one and still is you can see he uses the exact same picking technique with success:

http://youtu.be/WIzoP-L-X5I

Passacaglia

Hemert, that's quite a testimony, Amund's playing. Congratulations to both of you. I was with your site for 3 mos, and as I mentioned, my focus is very much on rhythm - my pale commentary here notwithstanding - but look forward to more. I do appreciate you showing all this.

Charles Meadows

Wow! Impressive playing by Amund.

I was looking over some tabs I had downloaded from RA and was wondering if Stochelo did it that way.

Is this the way others like Angelo or Bireli do it? Looking at the notes my tendency (coming originally from a heavy metal background) was to try to sweep three strings at at time in the diminshed runs. But this way does give a different sound.

Thanks Hemert.

Jazzaferri

My ears tell me that an alternate type stroke doesnt have the hmmm I dunno...punch maybe ......that a free or rest stroke has.

Charles Meadows

It doesn't sound quite the same. Unfortunately I learned my first gypsy songs with alternate picking! I spent who knows how many hours on Angelo Debarre's "La Gitane" (from the Live at Djangofest NW album) and Stochelo's Les yeux Noir from North Sea jazz. Now I am slowly going back and retooling them using the gypsy picking. Not easy! But there is just something about the rest stroke sound that alternate picking cannot capture. I would be interested to see how Angelo does some of the fingerings on the diminished runs. From watching youtube I gather he does not do it the same way as Stochelo exactly. Probably a few more upstrokes after the initial free down strokes.

dennis

Hemert wrote:

After transcribing many solos of Stochelo with pick directions for every note I have actually found his picking to be very dogmatic, that is: he will always pick certain licks the same way (he does vary with embellishments but that's it). The problem with always striving for rest strokes and not practicing free strokes is that many people will never be able to play arpeggios with only down strokes using rest strokes and they switch to using down-up patterns when playing two notes per string. Stochelo almost never plays down-up in such circumstances but down-down which ends up in eight downstrokes in a row when playing dim arpeggios for example.

If you have trouble doing this at high speeds you need to practice the free stroke on the first note on a string consciously in a slow tempo so you can speed up those exact motions.

Yes if things go as planned i wil lbe in france this summer... yes the late night samoreau jam was lotsa fun

Re: Stochelo being dogmatic; I have to say yes and no. Yes in the sense that at faster speeds, he definitely is very consistent. But when he slows things down, like you say he doesn't know how to slow it down and keep it consistent, he'll change his pick strokes [edit, he'll go for way more downstrokes] or even change the notes a little bit. And also when he plays slow, he consistently goes for the rest stroke , any video is proof. And as you know yourself, Stochelo plays very naturally so to speak; he doesn't give his technique much thought, which is why he doesn't know how to recreate his fast lines in slow motion... Like you i've spent countless hours slowing down his technique (back in 1999 the only tapes were mary honcoop's bootlegs, or django legacy on VHS , i actually converted everything to digital format so i couild slow things down!!!).

I think we are saying the same thing but the psychological approach is different...As long as the end result is the same, I guess it doesn't matter; but I stand by the fact that one should "strive" for rest stroke, that does not mean that one always does it.

It is not easy to practice using the exact same physical motion at a slow tempo as one does up to speed; which is precisely why stochelo always does reststrokes slow. If Stochelo practiced the freestrokes like you say one should practice, then he would have no problem recreating the pattern slow, you know what i mean? This is of course just my opinion but i think i'm being fairly logical.

I learned to play this style without any books or instructional videos, because there were none at the time; I also hung out with a lot of my gypsy friends in france, and later on around 2004 or so , went to the dutch camps a few times; basically, i had to learn how to observe carefully!

In the end , everyone plays differently, even in the dutch camps, paulus has his own phrasing/fingering system that is a bit closer to his brother in law Fijkeli , they both pick almost every note, whereas stochelo will usually use a bit more slurs (pull offs like you say)..

this phrase comes to mind: on the high E (8th notes) : B Bb A, on the B: F# F E... if you loop that phrase, paulus usually does D U D D U D, whereas stochelo would probably do D U D D pull off U.

Anyway like I said, in the end the result is what matters, even if we disagree on psychological approach... I still stand by what i said about no overanalyzing... the important thing is to go for tone tone tone; i'm sure that's what stochelo went for himself when he was practicing as a kid.

When I practiced slow I always used rest strokes, and as i gradually increased the tempo, i didn't really think too much about being consistent with it , other than just "striving" for it... I think i can play fairly fast using this technique, i jsut recorded this on my iphone, i hope it ll work

https://www.yousendit.com/dl?phi_action ... aFExWjhUQw

... i'm using the gypsy picking technique.. whether i do full on rest strokes, i m not sure, but in my mind i'm going for it...

Charles Meadows

Dennis,

Do you know any particulars about how Angelo tends to phrase or pick? I am guessing he does DUD DUD when picking on the same string. Do you know if he does the diminished runs like Stochelo (all down) or if he does them differently?

Passacaglia

This cowboy is completely lost. Probably just as well, because there's years of rhythm ahead, and then waltzes (rest stroke, free stroke; instinctive choice, or codified approach?) and then....talk to me at 60. :shock:

I don't even know if I'm coming at this correctly (Jazza - a sincere apology to you; I stepped in it, completely, and better understand what you were saying, now). At any rate - the question for this beginner is, not what would Stochelo do - but what did he do? In other words, it seems the fundamental difference of opinion I'm seeing is whether baby Stochelo practiced what we would call rest strokes, but as time and skill came on, he just played - sometimes, rest strokes, a good many times, not, but that's just a function of experience - almost a kind of "attack" psychology, however it actually pans out...e.g., hard and assertive, even with "free strokes", because it's all founded on a rest stroke as fundamental (Denis - your view, yes?); or, on the other hand, baby Stochelo codified his approach, so that a rest stroke is used consciously here, a free stroke or free stroke/rest stroke there; and that if you don't keep in mind these clear, different uses from the start, it's harder to unlearn and learn later on. (Christiaan - do I have it right?)

Do I at least have the crux of the question in mind? This seems really important - and as one committed (to a fault) to learning correctly now, over unlearning later, this is a difficult one, at least for me. Won't muddy this up by further posting if this is a purely personal concern.

Passacaglia

Just one more - I'm watching Denis's In the Style of DVD (gold). I can't see close enough to see, but I will say it sure looks like that kind of assertive attack I associate with a rest stroke.

Might this be the lead corollary to what some rhythm guys do - broader range of motion on slower tempi (attack, rest stroke), less ROM on faster tempi (attack is still there, but it's actually a "free" stroke...doesn't touch the string)?