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This would be necessary to shorten the distance to be able to keep up at faster tempos.
Other than that, everything else (i.e. pick angle, wrist position, etc) is identical.
Is that correct?
Thanks
say C# dim7.. he'll play C# on the A string, E and G on the D string , Bb on the G string, C# and E on the B string...
angelo's phrasing system is also very different from stochelo's they don't play the same patterns, i dont know how to explain it, but his phrasing is more "linear" ..
like I said many times already, don't worry too much about pick strokes unless you are aiming to copy a player 100% (which is fine and it's a great learning tool); I'd worry more about the tone that you are trying to get... Passacaglia quoted me many posts before and i think i summed up my point pretty clearly in that quote.
Again, as a general rule, start new strings with downstrokes (of course certain phrases start with upstrokes). When there are many notes on the same string, alternate picking can work, or downstrokes can work depending on the speed; a combination of the two can work as well like D U D D U D, again depending on the speed AND the tone desired...
Like for example on the northsea jazz fest live recording, on minor swing, stochelo plays triplets E F F# G F# F, etc... he starts with a downstroke and the rest is alternate picking... he starts it on the 1st beat.
Jimmy Rosenberg also plays that lick but he starts it on the 4th beat, and he shifts the accents by playing D U D D and from that point hundred percent alternate picking...
In both instances that s when they play very very fast.... at a medium tempo, one might do D U D D U D, at a much slower tempo D D D D D D would be manageable as well.. The point is, it all depends; it all boils down to TONE!!!
I completely get what Christiaan is saying too; I'm just saying from my point of view i've always practicing aiming for reststokes even when i didn't always do it...
like in his dinette example, he plays an F7 type of arpeggio going into Bbm7 at the end of the B section... he starts with a restroke sweep on A follow through with a FREE stroke on the note C and then 3 sweeps on the remaning notes...
he actually does that pattern consistently on that type of dim7 run (he does it on 2 other instances in the B section of the melody on the C7)...
that's his preference for picking that way; to me it's still very much gypsy picking... i don't know what sources christiaan is referring too, the only one i know that talks about this technique is michael's book, but it's a small book and u can only cover so much in a small book, and just because stochelo picks that phrase that way does not mean that others do.
Re: the free stroke, Christiaan is definitely right that free strokes do happen; my only point was that i personally always practiced going for rest strokes even if i didn't. And thinking/practicing that way has not prevented me from doing freestrokes as in that dinette example; i just played that whole B section with the exact same pickstroke with no difficulty at all.
One of my favorite examples for demonstrating the freestroke that Christiaan is talknig about is playing a pattern like this
Say Am chord, A on the G string, C on the B string, and loop those two notes over and over again. All downstroke, the first attack is a fullrestroke sweep motion, the second one is a rest stroke; that's at a fast tempo... At a very slow tempo i'd do full rest strokes on both...
This is a pattern that is used a lot about the dutch; i can think of many of the Wasso Waltzes (check out the album Seresta, the one waltz in Dm, the B section is full of that pattern)... Gypsy Summer, one of stochelo's compositions is full of that too...
Like i said, the end result is the same, i think that's what matters... do whatever u gotta do to make it work; but i repeat, don't overanalyze...
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As I've said before: if you can play those lines fast while you use rest strokes in your mind (while probably using free strokes unconsciously) there's no need to practice the free strokes slowly. That's how it went for Stochelo. For many other players it is really beneficiary to practice the free strokes slowly so you can step by step approach playing fast.
This is even a problem within the Dutch sinti community. There are many gypsy guitar players who really practice hard to become solo players but somehow they fail to get to the level they are expected to (level of Stochelo, Jimmy, Mozes, Paulus etc.) and they give up and stick to rhythm. There's nobody there to give them technical (or theoretical) advice so they just figure: "I don't have that gift" or something similar. For those people practicing free strokes slowly might be one (of many) steps they could take to overcome that hurdle.
About the sources being wrong. I actually do not know what I was referring to exactly but I've had so many people sending me mails or posting in our forum (and this forum) about the transcriptions inside RA being contrary to what they've learned from books that I figured that those books were not right when it came to Stochelo's actual technique.
If you want to see some amazing players who use alternate picking on one string playing many of the same licks Stochelo plays: Diknu Schneeberger and Gismo Graf.
A fantastic player who alternate picks even when changing strings (so starting up on a new string): Olli Soikkeli.
Amati Schmitt and Joscho Stephan also have no problems starting with an up stroke changing strings.
Stochelo cannot start with an up stroke when changing strings. I asked him, he tried and said "no way" but then again, what good would it do for him?
About over analyzing: I come from a very strict classical violin background, practicing 6 hours per day to play some piece Heifetz and Milstein have already recorded on a level which you probably will never reach. Anyway, classical violin technique has been studied, analyzed and taught in a very analytical way for hundreds of years with enormous progress in the last 50 years. I come from an environment where there was some kind of solution for every technical problem you could have, some exercise, some way to use certain muscles, some way to curve your fingers, angle your bow and the list goes on. And history proves that if you happen to have access to a teacher who knows all these solutions to technical problems very precisely and with the ability to teach them, you have the opportunity to become a great player, nothing to do with talent. Just your teacher and the hours you put in!
My goal with RA was and is to create such an environment: you have a problem? I have a solution and if I do not have one I will study and analyze untill I do have one using Stochelo as an example in this case. I already did this for a longer time with gypsy jazz violin and I'm fairly certain I could teach any good classical violinist to play it given enough time and their dedication to practice. Someone said to me once (or twice): "you're the man of the tricks, right? How about feeling and talent?" My response to that is: great if you can get there on feeling and talent but if you DO have a problem, I know a trick! 8)
The free stroke is shortened a bit maybe but the pick doesnt stop its more kinda an oval shape motion which is why it is so fast. No deceleration and acceleration just changing vectors
Thank you, Denis, and Christiaan, for staying with lesser folk (I'll only include myself here) through the channels cut through these pages.
Denis, thank you for continuing to be one of the most generous individuals I know, in or out of this community.
pas encore, j'erre toujours.
I come from an economy picking background with a few years of bebop jazz experience. Naturally, in that style it makes more sense to follow the strings to make the pick travel the shortest distance. But that being said, the vocabulary is often more conductive to economy picking too.
What really floored me was that all downstrokes on diminished arpeggios actually makes a lot more sense than alternate picking them.
When you have two notes on the same string and go to a higher string, the pick has to travel more if you play an upstroke on the second note. Now your pick is "behind" that string and has to travel over it for you to strike the next string.
When you are relaxed and the picking comes from the wrist, it's much easier to use downstrokes because after the second downstroke, you are much closer to the next string. Technically, to me it feels less straining than alternate picking.
Of course it takes some time getting used to, it won't happen over night.
In the end I believe the vocabulary you try to play should dictate your technique. The Dutch style has certain characteristics that demand a very powerful, confident sound. I'm no expert on styles, but it seems to me the French style is lighter and more legato in many aspects. I hear a lot of Bireli in the newer generations, and of course Bireli has a lot of modern jazz influences in his playing so it makes sense to use more upstrokes. I don't know, just making some assumptions.
It seems to have a lot to do with articulation. Slurs, hammers and pull-offs will offset a picking pattern. I know this from my bebop playing, where I often try to emulate the inflections that horn players use. They tongue some notes to give the phrase a certain pulse. On the guitar we can emulate this by not picking every note. I hear this being used much by the newer generations.
So what I'm getting at is that the phrase should dictate the technique and not the other way around. I'm going to keep studying Stochelo exclusively for at least three more years to really get to the core of what makes his playing sound the way it does. I'm not concerned with becoming a Stochelo clone. Folks are recklessly copying Bireli, and nobody seems to protest. Originality comes after it has all been assimilated and you start putting it together in new ways. That's what I learned from years of transcribing licks by players like Pat Martino, Tal Farlow, Joe Pass and others. I doubt it would be any different for jazz manouche.
For what it's worth, there you have the opinion of someone who is in the learning process of deciphering the style.
Maybe I have more valuable insights to offer once I have been doing this for a few more years.
Thanks for the info. I have found Angelo playing that diminsihed pattern a lot in trying to transcribe his stuff. Do you know if he picks it like Stochelo (several sweeps of all downs) or would he up-pick the second note on a string? I am still in that transition from alternate picking to rest stroke style, and am still trying to find what fits best for me.
Thanks, - and to Hemert and others as well for all this great detailed info!
My experience has been similar to what Dennis has expressed. When practicing slowly I always do everything with full blown reststrokes, but when playing at very fast tempos some of the descending one note per string arpeggios may be slightly "fudged" in that the reststroke motion doesn't have time to completely rest on the next string. As Dennis mentioned, you are "striving" to do it so the motion is completely the same and there's really no special technique to practice to achieve it. At very fast tempos I'd have to film myself and slow it down to confirm that every single reststroke was done to full completion. My guess is that most are, while a few were done so quickly that they didn't quite make it to completion. I'd have to take a closer look at some of the slowed down footage of Stochelo, but my guess is that his "free-strokes" are mostly an unconscious byproduct of doing rest-strokes very quickly.
M