Modern la pompe vs Django's rhythm

Al Watsky

Its sort of triumph of the automatons at present :-$ Theres another school, the if it feels good do it school. If it doesn't feel good it ain't good I function in other scenes that developed from dance genera. Its common for tempos to get faster as the players develop and I guess we all know about dance tempo vs. "concert" tempo. The general audience when seated is wowed by high-fast-and loud. They like fast unison playing and sequences. Thats the man in the street vibe. Its not the deepest thing. In fact, its kinda boring, but presenters and promoters just need to put butts in seats. So this will go on for a while.

guit-box

It seems like a lot of us are in agreement that the old-school Django rhythm is more enjoyable and musical. Have any of you folks made recordings you could post playing in this style? Also, someone mentioned a certain cd of Fapy Lafertin playing in this rhythm style. I'd love to hear an example of that--even if it's just a short clip. In all the examples of Fapy I've listened to on YT, he's not playing the open notes on the up stroke and it doesn't have that bouncing swing that Django does. I have his cd Fine and Dandy and never listened to it after the first listening. Not that it's not good, but something about it is not that interesting to me. There was the one clip of Romane demonstrating old-school pompe, but I'm not sure if he really plays like that in public or was just demonstrating the old style--since it's just a clip and not in English.

guit-box

I partially take back my comments. Here's one clip of Fapy Lafertin Quartet and when Fapy is playing you can hear the open note up strokes, but it disappears when he solos. The band has a nice emphasis on 2 and 4 but they don't have the bounce imo.

Passacaglia

Guit-box, that was likely me. Like I said, I just think we're hearing differently. The Star Eyes CD is not really any different than other material from him (I listen to Fapy a lot - most of his albums, including his early work when with Waso), so I'm not sure posting something from Star Eyes would make a difference - I think we're just perceiving differently.

By my experience, I have to disagree that Fapy doesn't have "that bouncing swing." In fact, for me, quite the opposite and like I also said, to me, he sounds very old school, a lot of "fidelity" to Django's sound. I won't out the name because it was given to me in private, but I thought this idea is really fascinating: That Fapy got most of his Django-etudes from just 3 tunes, from Echoes of France, V. 1: Echoes of France (La Marseillaise), Coquette, and Django's Tiger.

I didn't chime in earlier on this notion of open notes on the upstroke...which would sound horrible, I would think, if literally every note was open before landing back on the downstroke. Did you have a specific example, showing this?

I think it might have been Ted Gottsegen: "play the damn chords, man!" And Denis, a similar notion...swing, swing, swing - and do it voicing the chord on every beat. Fapy's a good model for this (as are Denis and Ted and many others).

Anyway, great discussion, guit-box, thanks for raising it.

-Paul

guit-box

You can hear the open notes on close to every upstroke on Django's Tiger here:


These recordings were my first introduction to Django, and perhaps that's why I'm so fond of this rhythm. Of course there's a lot of control and choking going on that makes the swing really pop, but the open notes are a big part of the equation. I hear a clear pitch drop (implies open notes) on all the up strokes in both of these recordings. I also did some test recordings of this technique and it's pretty darn close to that sound.

I believe this version of Coquette is from the same sessions. Same magical sounding rhythm section.

Passacaglia

I'm just not hearing it, guit-box. I'm practicing now, but will come back for a real listen. Interesting discussion!

guit-box

Maybe I'm hearing it wrong, but I really think it's the open notes I'm hearing since I've tried it, recorded it, and played along with the above recordings. Whatever rhythm player is most forward in these recordings is practicing "squeeze and release" in the left hand. So, the down beats are still short because he squeezes the left hand on 1,2,3,4 but quickly releases and then comes off the string just enough that the upstroke catches the open notes--thus the pitch drop I hear. But the open notes are only there for milliseconds and then choked by the next squeeze.

Passacaglia

Well, there's no denying people take their fingers off - I've just never thought about when....I've tried to just get the sound I want and let my fingers adjust to that. I always presumed, actually, if my fingers lift off completely, it was just after "squeezing" the percussive beat, and "releasing." I think many play a voiced upstroke, some (Nous'che reportedly) probably play a muted upstroke before hitting a fully voiced 1 and 3, and some probably do what you're saying, an open note voice before proceeding.

I am a notorious overthinker, so I'm going to bow out, guit-box. Interesting to see what others say. Thanks again.

Paul

guit-box

I think you're spot on about most others doing a voiced chord upstroke or a muted upstroke. My conjecture is that one feature making this particular QHCF rhythm different than most modern pompe is they are instead sounding the open notes on the up stroke and then muting them quickly on the next left hand squeeze. I think these two samples are really good evidence. Although, I'm glad to be wrong since my goal is simply to get *this* sound. I feel like I've come the closest to the sound with this technique, but if someone wants to demonstrate how to get this sound with a different method, I'd love to hear and see it.

blindjimmy

so i have a different way of describing the hot club rhythm sound. To me , at least at medium tempos , the rhythm seems to have a certain quaint politeness, like nicely dressed gentlemen smiling at you , cooly snapping their fingers on the 2 and 4.