Modern la pompe vs Django's rhythm

wim

It's a really interesting debate about whether rhythm is better clean and minimalistic (modern style) or adding lots of colour and detail (django style). Maybe it depends how many guitars there are, and whether they are behind other guitars or behind clarinet/violin. I have mixed feelings. The only thing I've decided for sure is that if it's showy and Django style, then it has to be done well. When I hear Django doing rhythm tricks, they almost always are sound great ... other times I've heard other guys do it and thought it just sounds tasteless and annoying .. a good example of this is Bireli. Now don't get me wrong Bireli is awesome I love to listen to his stuff. But I prefer the rhythm playing of someone straight up like Mathieu Chatelain.

Perhaps the rhythm player has to be able to do any 'tricks' with great technique and perfect timing. And since this is a tall order for many amateurs, it's better just to play straight up. On the one hand I really agree with guys like Gonzalo who suggest to cut out most or all of those rhythm fills, and I certainly feel it can be annoying as a lead player to have guys adding that detail all the time. On the other hand really good Django style comping is so much more interesting to listen to than a lot of these modern guys, as many others have mentioned here.

It seems to be a rare skill to do it well and tastefully without it being too much. Samy Daussat is one example of a "busy" rhythm player who isn't annoying but complimenting the soloist well. I had lesson with him in Paris over summer and one thing we covered was different rhythm styles, one of the first things he asks me is.. show many how many rhythm styles you can play! (contrast with others who might just work on "perfecting" the "one true rhythm style" or something, which is futile and misguided in my opinion). I'm not talking about vals, bossa, and all those others etc, just different rhythm styles of swing. Samy was quite adamant that the rhythm player had to keep things interesting, always changing colours and asking 'questions' to the soloist. He said when it's just the same style it's boring to play over, like he's waiting for some inspiration to bounce off and make a conversation. Anyway it really gave me some food for thought.

Passacaglia

Wow, I'd love to hear more of your experience with Samy, Wim. I really like him - have seen him on the Tchavolo Live In Paris and an unnamed French film, awesome documentary; they were doing a tune which I've now spaced, but awesome. Denis talks of liking to work with accompanist's who "move," their progressions are alive and make sense, and lately I've also enjoyed Tcha Limberger's comments this way, in the recent DC GJ School/indiegogo campaign. It was interesting that Tcha also talked of getting bored with an accompanist doing the same stuff, chorus after chorus.

Honestly, I'm working on very simple fundamentals - still, after a solid 2 years now, of rhythm. Each person's road, and all that. But I get the difference an accompanist who gets "living" progressions and has some theory in his belt can make.

guit-box

You make some good points about the abilities of rhythm players. I've played with enough different rhythm players to realize that what's in their DNA is how they are going to play. Some players just can't feel the bounce or swing and so they are probably better off keeping it to a simple 4 to the bar. It still sounds nice to play this way as long as it has an overall lightness, but especially light on 1 and 3. I don't think of the Django's rhythm players on Coquette and Django's Tiger as busy, since it's just adding more up stoke to the rhythm, but if someone can't feel that upstroke in the right way then, yes it can sound off, and consequently busy.

Jazzaferri

I think that Sammy's idea and certainly Django's as well as my own more modest take is that the rythm guitar has to be part of the conversation....some times responding to an idea or concept the soloist throws out there....sometimes creating the basic idea for the soloist to jump on and elaborate.

Band in a Box has the basic pompe down (analysed from real rhythm players) and I wasn't kidding when I said lots of modern rhythm players could be repalced by that program...they seem to ignore the basic components of music, melody, harmony, rhythm and dynamics and just go on strum..chick..strum..chick...and on and on...sounding like harmonius metronomes....aaarrrrrghhhh.......

Now I'm probably gonna get an earful....

Buco

@Jazzaferri I basically agree with you bu can I ask in fairness: did Joseph have the freedom to express himself on rhythm as his brother did?

And with modern bands it's basically the same, soloist is allowed to play rhythm expressively while another soloist, usually on a different instrument is taking a chorus, and rhythm player is just that.
Not that I agree with it, I'd have a hard time being a member in a band where I was required to stay within those bounds all the time.
But when it comes to rhythm, Django served the music, not himself. The problem becomes when these fills are self fulfilling. I've heard plenty of those at DIJ, that didn't sound that good either.
What you hear a lot recently is when two or more lead guitar players get together, neither one wants to step over that boundary when the other is soloing. It's more of a courtesy thing, but that also doesn't serve the music I think. However if they all did it in the multi guitar setting, it could become a mess pretty quickly.
Gypsy jazz is more hard driving vs straight jazz so it does require a steady pulse.
Although as you said elsewhere Jazza, listen and the song will tell you what to do.

Buco

Jazzaferri

It is a very difficult role indeed. I am playing in a duo again and while the role is as you say rhythm guitar and percussion or drums or timekeeper (as you please) the pulse of the song is there if we listen. I don't try and be fancy...that would be Mr Ego taking over and while technically he's ok musically he sucks....I try and just play what wants to come out....when we are both in that space its magical.

The more players, the harder that is to achieve....in the big bands I am in if it happens for a a few parts of a song or two in tahe evening the energy is huge....but its a speciial night as it often doesn't happen at all in those gigs.

Jon

Talking about how Django played rhythm is not proving any points, as Django wasn't usually the primary rhythm player in the band, so his role was more to embellish things. Joseph and the others held a pretty steady beat though, and didn't seem to do much fancy fretwork. I can't stand it when there's just one guitar playing rhythm behind me and they're doing rolls, bits of arpeggios and worst of all - tremolos - and I try not to do it, apart from the odd rhythmic bump here and there, under others. Discipline, people! The audience, and the dancers will thank you. Of course, when there are more guitars playing rhythm, the groove can be better maintained through all that embroidery, so one guitarist could embellish a bit more, but unless timed very well, it will still to some extent impede the soloist from doing whatever they want to do.

The soloist, by the same token, doesn't have to just play awesome fast single note lines all the time (this, in my opinion, is the most annoying thing about the modern school), but should be free to play rhythm fills, parts that sound like big band call and response, and such like as part of their solo (Tchavolo does this all the time, as did Django). Givan covers this idea well in his book.

Jon

As regards bounce, I think or the Django rhythm as more of a gallop, or a canter, than the sort of bounce that Gonzalo gets to such great effect. I like both, but I think I prefer the Django feel. Also I like the forceful driving rhythm that you hear from Tchavolo, Moreno et al. Not light, but it can really swing, like on Swing 48 from Seven Gypsy Nights behind the violin solo - that's great rhythm playing! Actually, that's a good example of restraint by a rhythm player too (not sure who the rhythm players are on that), but Tchavolo is quite busy behind the violin, but behind him, his rhythm guitarists just play the occasional little bump.

Another consideration might be that because the timbre of the guitars is virtually identical, playing lots of stuff behind a guitar solo will obscure and muddy it in a way that doing so behind a violin or clarinet solo - where the lead voice is much more tonally distinct from the accompaniment and cuts through more naturally.

Passacaglia

Jon, that's Mayo Hubert holding rhythm on Seven Gypsy Nights. That's a great album. I'm not sure, but from the liner notes it looks like Martin Limberger might have been involved, but was unable to make it on this album.

Jazzaferri

If a groove can't be maintained with silence for a bit...it's not much of a groove...and if the rhythm player is stepping on the soloist he isn't listening....the same goes for the soloist......in my world its about a conversation...not a monologue...not two guys playing their own stuff but a real dialogue.....if that isn't happening and one had to continue...simple basics will at least minimize the agony of a prolonged monologue.

I should add that from my perspective more can be said by the spaces between the notes than the notes...