Rhythm, wetness, Gitane DG-300

Jazzaferri

At the bottom of the reply form just below the submit button is a blue window with options as one tab and upload attach,ent as the other. Follow the directions in the upload i assume thoug i have never done this

Passacaglia

Ah, right, thanks, Jay. Well, this is just a section with hands fully muted, downstroke style. Not sure if the harmonics are being heard, but this is what I hear whenever the strings are muted. In this case, my right hand is fully laid across all 6 strings.

Jazzaferri

Paul

Would you mind trying an experiment on your guitar for me.

I need you to play the Amin7 where one finger stops s6f5 and mutes s5 and s4-1 are barred with another finger.

Play on beat 1 only of a bar at about 80 - 90 bpm and play it very dry lifting your fingers but then resting them lightly on the strings to mute them for beats 2,3,4 and then play the same again on beat 1

Keep yournright hand floating above the top, no muting with it .....use the bent wrist form of chording if you do that but no forearm or wrist on any padt of the bridge or top.

If you could record several bars of that andost it i will have something that might possibly be useful to say. :roll: :roll:

Passacaglia

Hey Jay, will do. Just to clarify, I presume you're talking voiced beat 1, with mute held over 2-4 and voiced again on 1, yes (e.g., nothing percussive on 2-4). Will record on that assumption, and see what you have up your sleeve.

edit: OK, here you go. 1 downstroke only, 1 with upstroke:

Jazzaferri

Paul.

I hear more ringthrough (wetness?) when you are practicing your upstoke version. Your downstoke version is still fairly wet IMO. Is your second beat stroke shorter and crisper. Thats what i was trying, probably not very clearly to get you to do.

From what i hear

I suggest you concentrate more on getting the downstroke version crispy with no follow-on ringing. Try playing on beats 1 and 3 at that pace and use a false stroke to emulate beats 2 and 4. Think about lifting your lh fingers as the pick is just starting to hit the strings. That usually results in about the right timing.

I suggest you forgo the upstroke version until you have mastered the downstroke. I always want to run before i can walk but have learned (finally) that I get to where i want to go faster if i master one thing before i start another that depends on having mastered the first.

. It sounds Ike your right hand is still fairly tense. When you are playing a straightforward pompe no fancy stuff, close your eyes and feel your right hand tension. Put a number value to it between one and 10. Then try playing at a much higher (tenser) number. Then try playing at a lower number. Stop and relax.

After this exercise dont try and change the tension in your right hand, just be aware of the feeling in our right hand.

Work on this for a week or so and re record the exercise but without the metronome again trying fro the driest and crispiest chrod but still sounding the notes. Think of a stacatto 64th note

Passacaglia

Thanks, Jay. I have had trouble deciding between working a downstroke only style, or trying, from the start, to try to hone in on Hono (forgive the alliteration), his infinitesimally-subtle upstroke style. Several like yourself have suggested starting with downstroke only - and some prefer to play that way, eschewing the sound of an upstroke. I admire Hono so much, and would really like to emulate him. But it's likely as you say, trying to run before I can walk.

The issue for me is that the downstroke only thing feels mechanical, stiff, weird - oddly, it was the upstroke that gave me a kind of bounce for beats 2-4, if that makes any sense. I realized after DIJ that was a false help, since the tone's all wrong. Weirdly, most who've watched me play say my wrist is way too loose...and I've been working on that, which is perhaps part of the stiffness you're hearing. Or I've brought a lot more tension in, in trying to rework my entire rhythm.

Maybe a better way to describe this is that my wrist is wild, not just loose. I'll try to describe this, but not sure it won't come out right.

On Hono I, DC School, Hono describes a circular arc with the right hand on beat 1 - I think in trying to capture this, I misunderstood the difference between a literal circle, and a sweep - meaning, the circle tends to bear down on the middle strings, and lifts away on both the high and low end; whereas the sweep - still with a loose wrist - sweeps evenly across the (in his case, lower 3-4 strings on beats 1-3, and percussive thwack across all strings on beats 2-4).

Anyway, lotta words, and nothing matters but sound, so thanks for your coaching. Not sure if you were asking if I play beats 2 and 4 drier, and I do - what I play above was only beat 1, voiced beat. Here's an example of downstroke only, with all beats in.

Don't know if you can hear the ringing on beats 2-4, but these are fully muted - barring my own sloppiness (working on it - not accepting any partial mutings on desired muted strings, nor anything less than fully voiced on fingered notes).

Thanks, Jay. Very helpful stuff - I don't know if it's just my lack of talent, or not - but I am finding more and more, I can literally only work on one thing at a time. It's rhythm, and of that, one element only...without tension, thanks for the great conscious approach to tension and release. That, and Part A of Bistro Fada, which I successfully transcribed, but will now work on only at a place where I don't tense up (which I do, whenever recording, or trying to play at anything other than really slow tempo).

FWIW, I've also just recorded a bit of Sweet Georgia, as I've been playing since coming back (I think it was around Feb., this year) - meaning, acquiring a bunch of tunes in prep for DIJ, and realizing, there, it just wasn't right, the sound. Wet, trebly, doesn't swing, etc. But I think it's pretty representative of what I've gotten into the habit of doing.

Passacaglia

One more thing that occurs to me, Jay - I've got a physical issue; among other things, I've got permanent thoracic nerve injury in my right side (well, it appears permanent - viral attack, or so they think, hit my right thoracic nerve years ago, very seriously hospitalized, and tests confirmed the nerve was pretty much wasted).

What this means is I've a winged scapula. And if I don't watch it, my scapula flying away from my back results in a kind of severe pain and palsy in my right arm(as now - a weird band of referral between the deltoid and tricep, involving some of both). Very hard to describe properly - but I think what I'm trying to say is I have to figure out a way to deal with this nerve issue, because the tendency to tense up is all the more pronounced (no muscular strength where I'm supposed to have it in my right side, so other muscles tend to want to take over). You flag me that conscious retooling and relaxation is a must-do. Thanks again, brother.

Passacaglia

Try playing on beats 1 and 3 at that pace and use a false stroke to emulate beats 2 and 4. Think about lifting your lh fingers as the pick is just starting to hit the strings. That usually results in about the right timing.

One more one more thing. If I'm hearing you right, this mirrors an exercise Adrian Holovaty suggested to me - do a silent count 1-2-3-4, and beat 1 lasts about half the time - so the voiced beat lasts to the prick of 2, lifted to a total muting, and percussive thwack at 3 and silent moment over 4. Doing this, he emphasized, helps teach it's the right hand muting that kills the sound, and not beat 2 and 4's percussive thwack. Adrian, I hope I'm recalling this correctly. Is this about what you're suggesting, too, Jay?

Jazzaferri

S L O W L Y. However you are getting there. I Would suggest pick a song that has fairly simple changes like sweeet sue coquette minor swing or ?? That you really like and MASTER IT. Work on nothing else except exercises until you can play it perfectly with expression without thinking about the changes. Your stoke changes as you approach a change and your timing goes off a bit when you are conentrating on other things. None of these things are insurmountable.

You have only so much concious attention, call maximum 100 points If you are dividing attention points on timing, coordination, stroke, left hand muting in both timing and amount, plus where your fingers go next. Thats attention overload. The more you can put down to unconcious level the freer your mind is to contemplate what others are playing, dynamics and the other parts

There is no question that when technique is no longer an issue that artistry or lack therof will become a question that we all have to deal with.

Lots of people, pros amateurs (remember that word used to mean for the love of) never get to the point where a lack of artistry will ever show through.

As Salvador Dali put it "painter, no matter how hard you try and paint badly, it will still be evident if you are mediocre "

Most of us never even get to that point.

Passacaglia

Thanks, Jay. Coquette was something of an etude since coming back. I've since taken Stephane W.'s calling waltzes "kata 1" to heart, so began transcribing Bistro Fada. Over the last few days, it's been an hour or so of one chord, literally breaking down beats on G6/9 only, as Hono shows in Denis's Hono I on his site; Coquette or Minor Swing, something with simple changes (as I go gaga after an hour or so of one chord, or one part of one chord, only); and otherwise, trying to faithfully get Stephane's waltz, to include all the nuances (when he slides, pull-off, etc.). My thought on the waltz is that not only are they beautiful, but if I can get to the point of not thinking about it, the waltz makes for a perfect daily etude, technical work for fingering and feeling.

I'm curious about this - and I open this to Jay, anyone - but when working on stuff with this much rigorous attention, how do you deal with performing (if already a pro), or jamming? Meaning, one thing that has now gotten ahold of my flesh is I'm aware how off my sound is from where I want it. I also have a good jam list of 40-50 "memorized" tunes. So I go to a jam, and play....like I always have. If I have in mind any of the technical elements we're talking about, I'm absolutely out of the tune, and vice-versa.

Basically, how do you experienced players "improve" - do you have to go into periods of seclusion, and eschew playing out (publicaly - gigging or jamming) in an "old way," or do you practice, and just play out without any conscious thought of things worked on, technically, at all? Not sure if I'm expressing this right...