Rhythm, wetness, Gitane DG-300

Bones

Paul,

I've never really found that 'wet' guitars are a problem with rhythm playing in this style since it is so important to damp the strings with the left hand on 1/3 and 2/4 are even more damped. The only bummer with a really wet guitar is that it is pretty obnoxious for leads with all the ringing.

I guess with a really wet guitar it might be a little more challenging for rhythm but still manageable with technique as long as there is nothing else going on with the guitar (i.e. tailpiece, etc). If there is some ringing in the tailpiece or in the strings between the bridge and tailpiece try a piece of velcro wrapped around the strings there or some automotive door sound dampener (adhesive backed rubberized material) stuck onto the underside of the tailpiece and see if that damps it out.

Passacaglia

Bones wrote:

Paul,

I've never really found that 'wet' guitars are a problem with rhythm playing in this style since it is so important to damp the strings with the left hand on 1/3 and 2/4 are even more damped. The only bummer with a really wet guitar is that it is pretty obnoxious for leads with all the ringing.

I guess with a really wet guitar it might be a little more challenging for rhythm but still manageable with technique as long as there is nothing else going on with the guitar (i.e. tailpiece, etc). If there is some ringing in the tailpiece or in the strings between the bridge and tailpiece try a piece of velcro wrapped around the strings there or some automotive door sound dampener (adhesive backed rubberized material) stuck onto the underside of the tailpiece and see if that damps it out.

Thanks, Bones. Over the course of time, I've done various things like this (usually, an old pair of shoelaces became the behind-bridge dampener). It finally came down to a realization, aided extensively by Jay, Denis, Adrian H. and others, that it's me, and not the guitar. So, yep, it became a simple matter of laying down some serious hours. I think I've gotten better.

It isn't so much the wetness (which, once again, at the point I started this thread, was, is, certifiably me), as much as a certain kind of brashness, harshness I hear, now that I've had the chance to actually hear my guitar. No doubt, it's a certifiable cannon. Lots have praised the guitar, and I still think, for the price, it's a remarkable value. However, I've also no doubt now whatsoever what it is to feel a guitar that just feels better, and sounds better, to hear it in a very patent way, while playing.

I'm sold, in a very real way, on the Favino vein.

Jazzaferri

Beware the one trick pony :twisted: :shock:

Tere is a lot of different sounds that can be made between the soundhole and the bridge.

That, a few tricks with the pick and a good left hand and a really rich responsive guitar can sound like almost anything in the right hands :shock: As MB said its mostly the player.

Having baited that hook though, if all one wants to do is play trad gj rhythm or lead then you cant go wrong with a good favino or copy thereof.

Passacaglia

Jay, I have to take a breath, because it was such an experience, playing Chris's guitar. My gut tells me leaning to a Favino is a sweet spot, but we'll see.

Bones

Paul,

Ok, I see what you are saying. Yes, harshness can be a problem but I think it can be overcome somewhat. My Gallato oval hole is very loud and dry and great for lead but I really didn't like it for rhythm at first because I think what made it really powerful for single note stuff made it kind of harsh for chords. But at that point I was also going thru somewhat of a transition period on my rhythm playing and I feel I've been able to compensate for it with my technique (mostly by not overplaying, lighter touch, more damping/less ringing) and at this point I really like it. It's actually easier to play that way.

That said, I tried Gonzalos last guitar briefly a while back (can't remember who made it, I think it had initials MB or something like that on the headstock) and it was soooo easy to get a nice, smooth, dry rhythm sound out of it and that was before I improved my rhythm technique (I was taking a lesson from him for my rhythm playing so I was just starting my transition).

scot

The old expression for the best rhythm sound was "leger et sec" or "light and dry". All the great rhythm players have this and it takes work to get it. For most of us, as speed goes up, we tend to hit the strings harder, which I think makes the music sound even faster than it already is. After working hard to play with strength when you solo, it's really hard to soften the touch when you play a fast rhythm - it's hard to push the pick softly through the strings. But rhythm doesn't have to be loud, it's better to have the light touch and to always be there in the pocket with the right chord. Easier said than done!

I have a 1984 J-P Favino, an exceptional GJ guitar. I had a gig last year that required me to play all-acoustic rhythm in a very wide variety of styles - Scandinavian fiddle tunes, waltzes, bebop tunes, tango/latin, klezmer and even Appalachian fiddle tunes. I originally intended to use a Martin OM for the gig, but the guy I was playing with - forum member Ken Bloom, one of the best musicians and luthiers anywhere - assured me that the Favino was the best possible guitar for everything we would play. I had my doubts, but deferred to Ken's greater experience, and of course he was correct, that guitar was absolutely perfect for everything we played. I couldn't believe my ears.

Thinking about it later on, I came to the conclusion that when that guitar was built, Favino was still building a guitar for professional big-city guitarists who needed a durable guitar that would sound good for the many different styles of music a pro in Paris might be called on to play. After all, the pro was a big part of his clientele, and he was getting feedback from guitarists all the time. The Favino from this era is one the best multipurpose guitars ever, I think - even though these Favinos are kind of heavy, a good one has tremendous complexity and depth of sound.

On the other hand, most modern Selmer-style guitars seem to be purpose-built to play modern-style gypsy jazz, each builder having his own ideas about what this means. These guitars are ideal for playing gypsy jazz, but not as adaptable for other styles of music in the way a Favino is, I would say (I also have a Dupont d-hole which isn't much good for other styles of music). And of course, a good GJ sound is precisely what the the majority of musicians playing this music want. In mass-produced guitars, getting the sharp tone necessary for soloing power usually means trading off some mid and bass response - giving up some complexity and balance. For a variety of reasons, many mass-produced guitars have a sharp, wet sound, which makes it especially difficult to get the light and dry rhythm sound. One simple way to soften up that sound is to use the round edge of a pick made of soft materiel like a Dunlop 206 or tortoiseshell. When it was impossible to get Argentine strings and we used extralight steel strings, I used to use a round Grisman pick to play rhythm , which softens the tone up immediately. It's hard to be precise at first but that goes away pretty quickly. Or you could make a Wegen type pick (with that huge bevel) of softer materiel. I had a Gitane 255 for a while, I never did get all the wetness out of it, even tried putting a bunch of acoustic foam inside the body.

Of course, the top builders are creating guitars with a sound that's as balanced and complex as anyone could want. For the best tone, there's still no substitute for a fine guitar.

Passacaglia

Wow, fabulous post, thank you, Scott. Leger, sec, and carré (from Hono, as well as sec), are absolutely the three things I'm trying to master. It wasn't until really listening to the Rosenbergs that I even really (I know, it's lame - especially as so many accomplish this, not just the Rosenbergs) understood, in a corporeal way, how one could be both leger, and puissant. I expect I'll be "there" sometime around age 80.

Sometimes, it seems like I'm nuts...hours muting with the left hand, or doing a simple 3-chord blues at 60 bpm, trying to master the minutiae of right hand work - all to achieve a sound that is supporting, accompaniment. But it's an itchy obsession.

Jazzaferri

Scott, a very insightful post.

My Dunn also has a full palette of sounds in it too and is very responsive to the players ideas and touch.

I spent hours discussing the attributes with Michael and then gave him my desired neck shape and dimensions and away he went. He finished it on January 23 2010

Passacaglia

Jay, would you mind sharing some of the qualities you were looking for, and the specs you worked with Michael to achieve, to bring out those qualities?

Great discussion, guys.

Steveareno

Scot is right about the Grisman Dawg picks. A lot of mandolin player and bluegrass flatpickers also seem to agree. I use 'em and prefer them for a fatter, rounder, drier tone. Not that thick by GJ standards, but considered extra heavy by most "normal" guitar pickers.
Swang on,