Lets write a fake book together

AJATango

Not to nit pick, but, I have to speak up about the correct use of terminology. There is no such thing as half diminished. A diminished chord is not a diminished chord with out the bb7 in it. Therefore it can only be called a m7b5.


I'm anal about proper terminology.
it's the teacher in me.

BluesBop Harry

Whatever you decide as far as nomenclature goes it's alright with me, I just thought that since, almost all major chords in this style are 6 (6/9) chords there's no need to notate it everytime. Also I have a couple of time mistaken something like a Gb for a G6(!).
In my mind this book would be for guitar players, bass players, hopefully violin players, maybe other melody players and occasionally piano players.
Of all those only the guitar players really need the extensions written.
A simpler notation encourages a more creative approach, I say just go with what you're ears tell you.


AJATango:
I'm confused...As far as I know a diminished chord starts as a triad, 1-b3-b5, a diminished seventh chord goes 1-b3-b5-bb7 and a half diminished (only the fifth is diminished) is 1-b3-b5-b7, Right?

AJATango

BluesBop Harry wrote:

Whatever you decide as far as nomenclature goes it's alright with me, I just thought that since, almost all major chords in this style are 6 (6/9) chords there's no need to notate it everytime. Also I have a couple of time mistaken something like a Gb for a G6(!).
In my mind this book would be for guitar players, bass players, hopefully violin players, maybe other melody players and occasionally piano players.
Of all those only the guitar players really need the extensions written.
A simpler notation encourages a more creative approach, I say just go with what you're ears tell you.

AJATango:
I'm confused...As far as I know a diminished chord starts as a triad, 1-b3-b5, a diminished seventh chord goes 1-b3-b5-bb7 and a half diminished (only the fifth is diminished) is 1-b3-b5-b7, Right?

============

my worry is that then leaves out the new comers who don't know that G 6/9 is the norm. we have to balance between the indoctrinated and non-indoctrinated reader.


the term diminished only refers to the 7th degree. There's no diminished triad. You CAN have a minb5 chord without the 7th or a m7b5 but, a true diminished is only 1,b3,b5,bb7.

Nor sure why the term half diminished came about but, it's misleading.,

Stackabones

AJATango wrote:

the term diminished only refers to the 7th degree. There's no diminished triad.

I don't think that's quite correct. I was always taught that 1-b3-b5 is a diminished triad. So, C diminished is C-Eb-Gb. C diminished 7 is C-Eb-Gb-Bbb. And C half-diminished, aka Cmin7b5, is C-Eb-Gb-Bb.

Four types of triads: major (1-3-5), minor (1-b3-5), diminished (1-b3-b5), and augmented (1-3-#5).

The diminished seventh is double-flatted seventh ... in C, the dim7 is Bbb; the dominant seventh is Bb; the maj7 is B.

At least, that's what I was taught in theory (regular and jazz-based).

AJATango

I learned it in harmony 1 at berklee. They're by no means the end all be all of knowledge.

BluesBop Harry

OK, so What about just sticking to 6/9 after the letter name for major chords?
And m (6 or 7) for minors?
But I say let's keep it at only one,two at most symbols besides the letter name, and not go past 9Th's on Dominant chords unless absolutely essential.

AJATango,
That might be the way someone teaches at Berklee but I don't think that's true.
What you're calling a "Diminished chord" is really called "Diminished Seventh chord" in theoretical terminology, it's just that the triad form is not used as often as the extended one in jazz, so it has become known as just a diminished.
As Stackabones said, there is a diminished triad no doubt about it, the term half diminished is absolutely correct too though it can also be called m7b5.
Those chords are by the way not limited to jazz music... they in fact come from much earlier approaches to harmony, I.e Classical music, where the m7b5 is symbolized with the half crossed circle and referred to as half diminished.
By the way I'm not pulling this out of a hat, I did study classical and jazz theory and harmony formally.

AJATango

I studied classical as well as jazz too by the way not just at Berklee (not someone, the whole theory department) but, also new England Conservatory. I write for orchestra among many things.

time to pull out the music dictionary

Ok you know what it's a disparity between trad 'theory and trad jazz theory


since we're talking jazz call it m7b5...or else

:x
:shock:

A.K. Kibben

Thanks for all the clarifications...
My theory education comes from the school of hard knocks...
(in the head from all my band members!)

A.K.

"Knowledge is the only thing you keep when you give it away"

BluesBop Harry

OK I agree let's just call write as m7b5 for purposes of the book.


And now we're on the same page in that there is in fact a diminished triad right?
And yes I also think it's just a discrepancy between jazz and trad theory.
I apologize in advance for hijacking this thread.
Anyway, forgive me if I insist on the issue but I'm totally sure that it's perfectly acceptable to call the m7b5 chord half diminished, even in the jazz realm. And so I believe what's totally incorrect, even if a whole school said so, is to say half diminished doesn't exist altogether or that it's wrongly named.
I know wikis are not the most authoritative source but here are a couple of articles anyway:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_seventh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-dimin ... enth_chord

As for the dictionary,
(From the Dolmetsch online, not sure how good)

Half diminished Seventh chord:
which, when written slightly differently, as the notes F, B, D# and G#, consisting successively of the intervals, an augmented fourth, a major third, and a perfect fourth, is called the Tristan chord), the half-diminished seventh chord is made up of a diminished triad with an added minor seventh; for example, F, Ab, Cd, Ed, the intervals being successively minor third, minor third, major third. The fully diminished seventh chord has successive intervals minor third, minor third and minor third, that is a diminished triad with an added diminished seventh.

Diminished seventh chords:
there are two diminished seventh chords.
-Half diminished seventh chord also called 'minor 7 flat 5', the intervals from the root are minor third (root to third), minor third (third to fifth) and major third (fifth to seventh) - the half diminished 7th chord is written with a slash (/) through the ° sign, i.e. ø viiø7 B-D-F-A
-Fully diminished seventh chord the intervals from the root are minor third (root to third), minor third (third to fifth) and minor third (fifth to seventh) vii°7 B-D-F-A flat
the fully diminished seventh chords can only be formed on three different notes, without duplication (enharmonically, at least). Diminished seventh chords formed on the three roots: C, C#, D are consequently the only possibilities. The diminished seventh chord occurs on the 7th degree of the harmonic minor scale.

Back to the thread:
Can we summarize what the preferred nomenclature's gonna be?
Also,
How are we gonna treat melodies? Seems to me a slight arrangement must be done in most cases. Protocol?

robertsaunders

Personally I've played chords of diminished triads all my life, as well as diminished 7ths, which are the dim triad plus a double-flatted seventh, for what it's worth—which is nothing, because it's off the subject. Whether a half-diminished exists or not may depend on who you talk to, where they graduated from, and whether they have an endowed chair in some university. I was a copyeditor once. Copyeditors are hired by publishers to correct grammar and usage, and trim excess. The only thing copyeditors seem to agree on is that language must be clear and concise. All else is style preferences. So if we just come up with something we all agree is clear and concise, we're good. The Wikipedia process will self-edit too, as things move forward and more people give their input. I don't know if I actually said anything here...